Steering problem on our 2010 R25

[AlanSutton]

We are experiencing a sluggish/squishy steering issue. Yesterday on the Erie Canal we had a hard time maintaining our course or getting the rudder to respond. We were able to carefully navigate to our destination in Seneca Falls NY. But steering required many turns, sometimes quickly, to get the rudder to respond. And no hard stop on the helm wheel.
Here is what we have checked so far:
- helm fill seems full with oil
- no signs of fluid leak at either the helm or at the rudder
- at the dock the rudder responds and it takes approx 8 turns from full right rudder to full left. Again there is no stop at the wheel when the rudder is full over

Does anyone have any ideas? Bleed the lines at the rudder? Since we aren't near a marina, we purchased some NAPA power steering fluid just in case. Safe to add it?

Thanks in advance, we appreciate thoughts.

Alan and Patti Sutton
On the "Patti Ann"

 

[NorthernFocus]

Sounds like air in the system. I've got the same vintage boat and from a centered rudder position it only takes two full turns of the wheel in either direction for the rudder to go hard over. Yes if the reservoir at the wheel is full of fluid then it needs to be bled at the actuator in the steerage compartment.

 

[Red Raven]

Sorry to state the obvious but just to cover all the bases, are you sure your autopilot was not engaged? When we first got our boat I once had the exact symptoms you state and was having a horrible time approaching the dock before I realized the autopilot was still engaged! Could it be possible that even if you thought you disengaged the autopilot that it was somehow still active? Perhaps a reset of the autopilot conroller? Otherwise I agree that air in the system is the next most likely culprit.

 

[NorthernFocus]

...Since we aren't near a marina, we purchased some NAPA power steering fluid just in case. Safe to add it?...

Forgot to respond to this part of the OP.

All I'd ever used for years was steering fluid. However if you read the manual I think the manufacturer says not to do so. I suspect due to potential issues with any additives. It is safer to use straight hydraulic oil. NAPA sells that too. But if it means getting home or not I'd use the steering fluid.

 

[Just Dreamin']

Alan, I think I know your vessel and it is equipped with autopilot. Question. Did you have the autopilot engaged when trying to make your rudder and course corrections? If so, you can get the indicators described.
Mike

 

[NorthernFocus]

Alan, I think I know your vessel and it is equipped with autopilot. Question. Did you have the autopilot engaged when trying to make your rudder and course corrections? If so, you can get the indicators described

This is true other than the description in the OP of equal number of turns in either direction to achieve rudder hard over. When fighting against the AP the "mushy" helm typically only occurs in one direction .

The AP was much more apparent back in the day when they were simple mechanical devices. If you tried to steer the AP simply jerked the wheel out of your hand 😳

 

[Scotty Mac]

Try isolating the AP pump. There are three Allen head bolts on the end of the pump that will isolate the pump from the system. Just tighten snugly don’t gorilla as it wold damage valves in pump. When i did this it cured the problem that we had of no stops, loose rudder response and a constant course correction. From what I understand the old pumps had valves that did not hold up to the pressures developed in the system and allowed bleed back . Our 31CB has that problem and we just got a new pump from Garmin, haven’t installed yet so we just stay with pump isolated.
If you search on here you will find that his was a more common problem in the past.

 

[South lake]

I spoke with Alan yesterday. The Patti Ann was our boat before Alan and Patti bought her. We had her for 6 years and when I heard about Alan's problem I was pretty sure I knew what it was.

in 2011, I experienced the same thing. Here's what I learned. I had engaged the Autopilot from the separate Garmin Autopilot control display, not the Chart-plotter. When I put the Autopilot on standby, and grabbed the wheel it had not fully disengaged. The Autopilot will let you steer around something while it is engaged and then bring you back on course. It feels like the steering isn't responding because the autopilot is periodically trying to get you back on course. Hence the many turns on the wheel instead of 4 turns lock to lock.

I learned to do two things. If the Autopilot is in standby but appears to be still engaged, then engage it again. let it take control for a half minute or so and then go to standby. Wait for a few seconds before taking the wheel to let the electronics all settle out and then you should have normal control. So my normal routine was to go to standby, count to 10 and take the wheel.

Because it was so normal to me I forgot about that until I spoke with Alan. When I spoke with him I asked him to start the boat, fire up all the electronics, and try the steering at the dock and lo and behold it now was taking 4 turns of the wheel lock to lock. He's going to see how it goes today before having someone check it out further.

One other thought. Because the electronics are so integrated I wouldn't just turn off the Autopilot if there was a problem. If I was going to shut down one thing I would shut down all electronics and then restart them.

By the way, in 6 years I never had to add fluid to the steering.

 

[stwendl]

If in fact it takes Hat long for the autopilot to disengage then there is something seriously wrong with the design. I would expect the ap to let go the instant i move the wheel. There is supposed to be some sensor in the lines that should disengage the ap auto magically.

On my previous boat I had ray marine installed and as soon as stdby was pressed and the mechanical clutch disengaged I had control. Of course on a sailboat things don’t happen as fast as on a motor vessel. The more I expect a faster response. I think in the Garmin there is a setting how quick you get control once the wheel is turned assuming you have a garmin