Water Flush issues

[Ana]

Hey there,
My name is Ana Gunn and I own a Ranger 21 down here in St Marys, Ga. We bought it about 9 months ago. We have taken it out with the help of a Coast Guard friend as we have little boating experience. We love her.We would take her out more often but we are in Atlanta and hope to move to our home in St Marys within the next 6 months so we visit our tug once a month.We have spent most of the last 6 months having a boat house built for her. Which is nearly finished.

I have been reading your board for a wee while but havn't posted because I felt like a bit of a fraud as we havn't really taken her out on our own yet. We havn't even backed her down the ramp with our own car yet. So far, I have piloted her but not docked her, have trailed her around St Marys and practiced backing up with a trailer.
We have lovingly cleaned her, built a 32' x 24' garage for her and start her up to keep her fresh and ready for action. We added lines, a radio and depth finder and new radio ariel.

We are conscious that she has to be started up every now and then. We were showed how to do so by our friend. We have been starting her up on dry land about once a month. We attach a garden hose to a connector 'T' right by the engine. We start the hose and the engine at the same time.

Now the boat is in the garage much further away from the hose pipe tap. I rigged up a section of yard irrigation pipe to the exhaust outlet and ran it out side so as not to flood the garage.
I connected the hose as usual and shouted to Andi for the water to be switched on. I waited for her to say it was on. The 'T' where it connects was not on tight and sprayed everywhere so I shouted for the water to be switched off but Andi didn't hear. I eventually got the water off after about 20 seconds.

The engine never got started and water came out below the boat from around the prop shaft where the shaft disappears into the hull through a bearing. Some came out from 2 grilles just behind the prop shaft. About a 2 gallons of water were on the garage floor.

We decided to start the engine to see if we had killed it and it started and ran normally for 10 mins. Water came out around the prop again but only one drip every 8 seconds.

We feel terrible about what we have done. Andi couldn't hear me telling her to switch the water off and I couldn't hear her telling me it was on, so we just made an honest mistake by having the water on without the engine being started. The hose pipe was long and so we were never sure when water got there anyway.

Do you think we have done something terrible to our loverly tug?
Have we damaged the engine?
Is it catastrophic?
Has the water gone up the exhaust pipe into the cylinder head and crank?
What should we do now?

I most certainly am going to have a hose pipe tap put in the garage to make this process easier.

I am not sure I understand diesel engines. I know they don't have spark plugs.
I know they have glow plugs and I know that diesel ignites at a lower compression thingy. Do they have pistons, carbs and cranks like regular engines? (I know a fair bit about vintage 2 stroke Vespa engines but that's all my mechanical knowledge).
I hear folks talk of 'injectors'. Is that a thing that spritzes/forces fuel and air into the cylinder so no carb? 'Injected' no gravity fed like a Vespa because the tank is level with the engine and because boats rock?

I am sorry to start off our introduction to the board with a problem and not with pictures of Andi and I under sail with a Gin and Tonic in one hand and an hors d'ovuevre in the other........I hope if we get through this initial crisis we will be able post pics like that.....

Any advice to 2 gals trying to learn how to lovingly care for a tug would be most most appreciated.....

 

[captain's cat]

Sounds like, if you ran it for 10 minutes with no problems, the engine is just fine. Not sure which engine you have since you didn't give a "year" of your tug. More likely if it's not an "EC" (extended cabin), it's one of the earlier 20HP Yanmar engines. I find that Wikipedia gives a lot of information and a lot of links to follow up deeper on any subject. You can find basic diesel principles too to answer your questions about what makes them tick.

Here's one I found with just a few minutes of poking around...

http://www.thefullwiki.org/Yanmar_2GM20

Have fun with your tug. It's hard, but not impossible, to damage an engine unless you run it with no cooling at all, sounds like that was not your case.

Charlie

 

[tlkenyon]

I am admittedly new to this, but my plan for this spring is to use a 5-gallon bucket. The bucket will be filled from the hose and then water sucked into the engine via a short hose attached to the tee in the water line (with the seacock closed). That way, there is no way to push water into the engine if it does not start, but there is plenty of water for a short run, and for a longer run, it is easy to keep the bucket full by periodically topping it off with the hose-end sprayer attachment.

 

[rt11002003]

Ana,

From what you have said, it would appear the only thing that may have suffered damage is the water pump impeller, a little rubber device in the raw water pump. It's easy to check and replace, if needed.

I have a R21EC on Lake Lanier, just 50 miles NorthWest of Atlanta. If you and your friend would like to drive up, I'd be pleased to discuss some of the questions you raised. You could do that on board where everything is. We might even convince my wife to go out with us on a short cruise. If interested, send me a PM. I'll give you my phone number then.

Gene

 

[JerryE]

Hi Ana and Andi,

From your report I can tell you that you actually have a pretty good working knowledge, overall, of how the diesel in your tug works. The injectors force feed diesel fuel into the cylinders, no gravity feed as you suspected. From your description I'm sure no harm came to your engine. As previously has been stated, you did not run it long enough without the water to cool it to harm it in any way.

BTW, your maintenance and care efforts are right up there with the top obsessive-compulsive Ranger Tugnuts. Very few build private boat houses for their boats! I've found this bulletin board to be almost 90% about care and modifications to tugs and 10% about cruising–so you're are in the right place asking the right questions.

Best of luck with the tug and I hope you get more use out of it.

Jerry

 

[Auklet]

Ana and Andi --- First off, welcome to the Tugnuts. Your adventure begins and you are not alone. I am certainly not an expert on diesels, I have just been staring in wonderment at them for a bit longer.

I believe that you can just turn the water on first before you try to start the engine. So the first thing to fix is the T connection, probably just needs new washers. The suggestion to use a bucket is a good one. That's what I have used when clearing saltwater out of an engine. Yanmars come in two types of cooling systems, 1: raw water and 2: heat exchanger. I am guessing that you have the raw water system. The raw water comes through the hull at a valve, goes by the T with another valve. From there it goes to the pump (the impeller thing) and then to a thermostat that controls the flow and temperature. Then the water runs through the engine block to cool the engine. When its work is done the water is dumped into the exhaust pipe to cool the muffler and then out the exhaust.

You already know that water should come out the exhaust. It is important to check this every time you run the engine. That's what tells you that the system is working.

I am puzzled by the description of the water in the hull gushing out around the prop shaft. A little bit of dripping is fine, that's what keeps the bearing cool. I would keep an eye on that when you put the boat in the water.

You have a wonderful boat that will give you many hours of enjoyment. As to learning about boating, there is an old saying, "Any three year old can do it, with thirty years of experience". Just keep asking questions, we learn more every time we try to answer

---Cary---

 

[ron cowan]

Cary, The 21' Ranger that I had used a heat exchanger. The water pulled through the thru hull went through the impeller and then to the heat exchanger and the out through the exhaust. The engine block has a closed water system with anti-freeze. The engine water pump (like a car) circulates the antifreeze and water through the engine and then through the other side of the heat exchanger to be cooled by the raw water pulled in through the thru hull. The raw water cools the engine water in the heat exchanger. The "t" after the filter screen is where you can add water when the boat is on the dry. You can hook a hose there and close the thru hull and the impeller sends this water up to the heat exchanger. You should not force a lot of water up but should have the engine running. the bucket idea should just be a good reservoir. This is also the way to get biodegradable antifreeze into the heat exchanger to protect it in the winter.
Ron

 

[tlkenyon]

With the heat exchanger configuration, I understand that it is possible to force water into the engine's combustion chambers via the exhaust if a pressured hose is charging the raw water system without the engine running. This is similar to the warning not to crank the engine for an extended period it is does not start right away. I have been told that the wet exhaust system does not lift the water out of the muffler unless the engine is running and the water then backs up into the engine via the exhaust manifold. That is the reason for the bucket - so that the engine gets all that it needs but only gets what it needs. Does that make sense or am I out in left field?

 

[Stella Maris]

That is exactly what Andrew told me. Now, I have not owned an R-21,just an R-25 and then a R-29. However, I would assume this holds true to all of the motors. If not, I would rather operate on the safe side than on the other side that could result in a large repair bill.

 

[tlkenyon]

Do you know if there is a drain plug for the heat exchanger? I found the drain plug for the water-lift muffler, and I gotta imagine that there is one for the heat exchanger.

 

[Ana]

Thank you all for your replies, they have been so helpful.

We spent most of last night reading your replies and learning about diesel engines (thanks for the link Charlie). I now understand 'four strokes', 'valves' and 'compression ignition'. Diesel engines are so ingenious!

We have a 1995 Yanmar engine : 3GM30F(C). I am sure it has a sealed water coolant which cools the engine, a heat exchanger and 'raw water' that cools the sealed water (Ron's explanation was very helpful).
From your replies it looks like there is a chance we forced water up into the cylinder even though the engine started up. Even if it didn't, it is prudent to get it checked out.

Gene mentioned the water pump impeller. I re-built it only 3 months ago. The belt that drives it was slipping and damaged the pump. I took it apart and needed a new rubber star shaped propeller thing and of course new seal etc. I also changed out the belt too. The water pumped fine after we ran the boat after the incident but I will definately keep an eye on it.

I did fix the 'T' connection so I won't have more leaks spraying all over the place. As for the leak around the prop I reckon when I get the cylinders checked out I should get them to check the seal and bearing down by the prop and have it 're-packed'.

I have also listened to your advice on the 5 gallon bucket. What a good idea! The boat gets just what it needs....not what I force into it.

It feels so much better knowing that there are folks out there that love their tug boats like we do. Who have such a wealth of knowledge and are sweet enough to share that it.

 

[Ana]

Do you know if there is a drain plug for the heat exchanger? I found the drain plug for the water-lift muffler, and I gotta imagine that there is one for the heat exchanger.

I have no idea if there is a drain plug for Heat Exchanger. I am in Atlanta at the moment so not able to check out the engine. Would that help if it had one?

 

[tlkenyon]

Yes, if there is a drain plug in the heat exchanger, it would possibly assist in providing a more robust winterizing condition in that the heat exchanger (aka radiator) is usually the first thing to be damaged by freezing. It gets very cold here (down to -30F). Incidentally, we are looking at lows in the teens this weekend already.

 

[Auklet]

Ana --- This is great, this is what this site is all about. You ask a question and all of us learn something. We all know a little bit about the subject and as we contribute to this thread you are now becoming the "go to" expert.

I admit that my engine knowledge comes from gas racing engines (I was a midlife teenager). The talk about water in the cylinders made me curious. But I think that I have figured it out. In a "raw water" system the water is stopped by the thermostat, but in a "heat exchange" system the water is free flowing and goes right through to the muffler. This could cause great problems.

It is very unlikely that the diesel engine will fail you. It's all the ancillary stuff added to make it "marine" that will most likely cause you grief. The impeller, the heat exchanger, the mixing elbow, and the water muffler are all weak links and vulnerable. They should all be inspected and/or replaced every two to three years. The most ignored item here is the mixing elbow. They can get plugged up with carbon after a time. I learned the hard way when the elbow on my previous Yanmar blew up. The only cure is to inspect it and have it sand blasted if you see a problem.

---Cary---

 

[RProffer]

Ana,
Welcome aboard.

Since you were able to run the engine, I do not think you got any water into the engine. If you had caused damage to the engine from the water, you would know it - kaboom. Just use a short hose going to a bucket of water in the future. Also, that is how you add anti-freeze to the heat exchanger for winterizing. I would not use the bucket unless I had to when performing maintenance on the engine. There is no need to periodically run the engine in between cruises. It is recommended that you top off the fuel tank with diesel fuel after a cruise to prevent condensation in the tank. Water/condensation in diesel fuel can be very dangerous for the diesel engine.

Concerning the leak, was that actually at the propeller or was it at the bottom of the keel on the port (left) side? If it was the propeller, then the packing may just need adjusting. If it was leaking at the bottom of the keel, was the plug installed tightly? On page 8 of the R21 Owner's Manual, they call it the Garbor Drain.

 

[Ana]

Ana,
There is no need to periodically run the engine in between cruises. It is recommended that you top off the fuel tank with diesel fuel after a cruise to prevent condensation in the tank.

Interesting Rick.....why exactly am I running the engine every month? Is it to just keep the batteries topped up? Or is it to keep every thing lubricated and used? If it is just for the batteries wouldn't it be easier to just put them on trickle charge?

 

[Ana]

Ana,

Concerning the leak, was that actually at the propeller or was it at the bottom of the keel on the port (left) side? If it was the propeller, then the packing may just need adjusting. If it was leaking at the bottom of the keel, was the plug installed tightly? On page 8 of the R21 Owner's Manual, they call it the Garbor Drain.

The leak was from around the propeller where the shaft disappears into the hull. I can see a bearing in there and I assume there is a seal behind it.
The 'plug' was not installed and water did not come out of that hole.

As for the diesel note. Keep the tank filled to prevent condensation......how long can you store diesel before it goes bad? Is there an additive like I put in my Vespa tanks. I know regular petrol goes bad after about 6 months...same for diesel?

I am sorry to pepper you all with questions but I don't know anyone with a boat that I can ask ..... let alone a diesel tug boat. 🙂

 

[RProffer]

Ana,
I do not know why you are starting the engine every month. The Yanmar manual does not recommend it and I have not seen any books, magazines or manuals recommend it. The Yanmar manual does say you should run the engine at idle for 5 minutes after starting to warm and lubricate everything.

As far as the battery goes, it takes about 2 hours to fully charge batteries off the charger. It does not take so long off the alternator with the engine running. But, I would not run my engine that long when it is not sitting in the water.

What I do is, I stock the refer with soda, etc. then plug in the charger the night before I plan to take the boat out. That way the refer is cold, the beverages are cold, and all the batteries are fully charged. All I have to do is put it in the water and go.

 

[SlackwaterJack]

Hi,
I guess I'll jump in here too.

The bearing you see where the prop shaft goes into (comes out of?) the boat is called the "cutlass bearing". It is basically a bronze tube with a fluted hard rubber liner and relys on water to keep it lubricated in day to day use.

If you look in the bilge of the boat you'll see where the propshaft exits the boat. It goes through a bronze assembly called a "packing gland". The gland is attached to the stern tube with a heavy re-inforced piece of hose. Now if you have any experience with the older type of faucet you'll understand how the packing gland works...if the faucet leaked arounf the valve tou just tightened the nut to compress the packing and it would stop leaking....same theory with a boat's packing gland. The main differences are that the boats gland is much bigger than the faucet for your garden hose and the boat's also has a locking nut to make sure the packing nut doesn't come loose while underway. There are special wrenches for the packing nut available at West Marine for around $30 (look it up to see what it looks like and then buy the same thing but better quality at ACE Hardware for $11).


There are several different "stabilizers" available for diesel fuel and they all work well (I like Prig-D). some have biocides to keep the diesel "shmeglies" away. Keep the tank full if it's going to be laid up for a month or more. If your boat is the earlier R-21 make sure the vent on the cap is tight or you can cut a "storage gasket" out of cork and use it to completely seal the filler cap to reduce the entrance of damp air into the tank(the R-21's with the red plastic tanks only breathe through the filler cap). leave about 2" of empty space in the tank so the fuel can expand without leaking in case the weather warms up before you use the boat (fuel expands as it warms).

fully charge the batteries and then just top them up every month or so ...no need to keep plugged in full time (make sure they have the water level up to spec). If it gets reallllly ccccold maybe take them out and store somewhere that is less likely to go below 10 deg.

Once the novelty ( for some) of a diesel engine wears off, you'll find that they are much simpler and less prone to breakdown than a gas marine engine. There's no tune-ups needed. no plugs to foul, spark to time, less chance of fire or explosion, All they ask is oil changes be made as required and nice clean fuel. The glowplug is seldom used unless it's very cold out, mine started yesterday at 35deg on the first 2 seconds of cranking without using the glowplug.

 

[RProffer]

Ana,
It sounds like you could get into something a little technical. I don't know if you got the manuals with your boat. Here is the link for the Yanmar Service Manual http://www.cascadeengine.com/cec2/c...(F)(C), 3GM30(F)(C), 3HM35(F)(C) -A0A1361.pdf and here is the link for the Yanmar Operation Manual http://www.cascadeengine.com/cec2/c...pdf&file=GM-OP Manual Multi- 49961-202281.pdf.

The manuals are well written and a easy read. I would recommend reading them to learn how the engine works and how to take care of it. Diesel engines in general work good and last long time if you perform the standard maintenance and you keep the fuel clean. I am told 75% of diesel engine problems result from dirty fuel.