MY OBSERVATION

C

Capt’nKarl

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Messages
624
Fluid Motion Model
C-242 C
Hull Identification Number
FMLT2330I718
Non-Fluid Motion Model
Previous R-21EC
Vessel Name
DRAGONFLY
I’ve been a member of TugNuts for about 7 years now and regularly view, comment or ask questions. One thing I’ve started to notice recently is how many members are reporting, on this forum, quality control issues. Be it electrical, plumbing or final inspection it’s seems to me there has been a significant increase in customers reporting problems associated with both Ranger and Cutwater boats and more importantly a decrease of communication from the company in what they are doing to correct the issues. Years ago as I followed chats of legitimate issues from owners to the company and how the company proceeded to resolve these problems I would have given the company a 5 star rating. Now seeing the perceived lack of company support to owners and the increase in problems MAYBE a 3. We all love our boats and have a dedication to them but the perception of not having company support makes me question whether the company has our backs as they did years ago.
 
Capt N Karl, I have noticed the same! Don't get me wrong, I love my little tug and this group has ben great to chat with. But I see the same problems being discussed over and over, you would think that the factory would make improvements to eliminate issues that keep coming up. I have noticed that some equipment installed on these boats are not installed In accordance with what the supplier has recommended. I don't know what the profit margin is or how things work in this economy. But if I was to buy a motor home at the same price and had these issues I would be very displeased. Bob
 
My observation is that the customer base for Fluid Motion has changed. By design - literally! My observation is that we have a greater percentage of new-to-boating folks buying the FM products. In the past I think most owners were buying a FM boat as their 2nd to 10th boat. They knew basic boat systems and how to do basic troubleshooting. Not so much with the new-to-boating folks. And thus a lot of operator issues rather than product issues. This means we get more posts on some really basic stuff (like keeping the scuppers clean or where the anchor light switch is located) hitting the forum.
Given FM production numbers are substantially higher than in the good old days, I’m not convinced we are seeing a greater number of serious problems PER BOAT than there was 10 years ago. Just more boats coming out of the factory and therefore more total issues hit this forum...
 
I have no idea what the actual quality trend is coming out of the factories. What I do know is that the volume of boats is increasing and the number of Tugnuts is increasing. Since this is primarily a forum about problems and how to fix them I would expect the number of problems would increase with the number of owners. What we don’t often see on this site is the number of things that go right, just work every time, because we wouldn’t post about them. Without actual data normalized by the total population it is hard to make any conclusion.

Another thing I know is I have only had a one issue on our boat that could even remotely be blamed on the RT factory (and even that was minor). Have I had failures, yes, but they all were equipment failures of RT supplier parts, not RT manufacturing issues. And those were addressed quickly by the suppliers with some help from RT. What does this mean? Nothing... it is just another data point of one owner who has not had manufacturing issues. I assume there must be many others that just don’t point it out.

The remainder issues I have had are all maintenance issues or due to my ignorance or negligence. Many of the issues noted on this site have ultimately turned out to be issues introduced by previous owners, dealers, or just confusion and inexperience. I am not saying the factory doesn’t have quality issues on shipment (all factories do to some extent). I’m just saying without knowing the denominator and classifying of the issues the quality trend is unknown.

...Just saw this is pretty much a repeat of what scross posted. Thanks for making the case Al! 😀

Curt
 
Hi Curt!
Not to hijack the thread but we were up in South Sound two weeks ago for what could have been the best consecutive nine days of weather so far this season! Not a drop of rain for the cruise until we pulled out! Call us the “good weather” gnomes! We’ll be in the San Juan’s for the last half of August so plan accordingly!
 
My $.02 is that Ranger has the best customer service of any company I have worked with. Love these people.
 
IMO, Ranger/Cutwater has increased sales as any profit-orientated business should. With this will come an increase in 'issues'. I work in an industry where manufacturers expect a 2% defect allowance. This is standard. Because no manufacturer is 'perfect'.

I believe, based on my observations at the factory, as well as everyone I've met at RT, that Fluid Motion is as dedicated as ever to customer satisfaction. They seem to put a high priority on getting things right, and as far as I am concerned, it shows. Will they get every detail perfect? No, of course not.

The tiny 'issues' I have had, have been met with "of course we'll get it fixed right away", and they have followed through with their promise. One of the two 'issues' I had, I simply asked Andrew Custis how I might fix it myself because it wasn't worth them sending someone to fix it... he would have none of that thinking! He sent someone right out and fixed it.

I believe, aside from being a great source for general questions, forums generally address problems. I think this greatly increases the illusion that somehow FM has lost it's quality focus. I think if you look, you'll find many posts that are quite positive!

All my previous boats were Sea Ray. At no time did I get this kind of service. Every query was met with 20 questions as to how I may have caused the issue... NOT how they would help. RT far surpasses my expectations. I am grateful to be part of the 'family'!

My 2 cents 😀
 
I would tend to agree with many of the posts on here. The one thing we are starting to see is the number of calls and emails we receive from boats purchased second hand. We get an average of 40 calls a day from people that had practically zero training or orientation where they are now trying to figure out the systems and operations of their new to them vessel. Or, they are now finding issues they need to repair and fix which require time from our end to try and support that the best way we can.

Our struggle is we have to be able to support the ones that paid for this service that comes with a new boat as the number one priority. At the same time, we try to help everyone but this becomes tough as the number of boats grow that are out in the field. I think it is something you do have to understand that when you do purchase used (which I completely understand) you should not expect the same support and hand holding as you would receive if you bought new. In my opinion, those people paid for that and we owe it to them to keep that at the highest level we can whether it is from the factory or the selling dealership.

Now, we also have to allow our dealers to step up that same level of support as they sell boats which is the number one reason we have dealerships. We are constantly improving this with processes starting from our factory and ending at the dealership. I believe we have come a LONG ways in terms of quality control and process from when I started here at Ranger Tugs 15 or so years ago. Always room for improvement and don't disagree with making it better!

We appreciate the support and we appreciate the feedback.

Andrew Custis
 
I have never had an issue that was not handled well by RT. Whether it be the parts dept, Andrew, Kevin or Jeff it has been prompt and excellent service. I have to admit I like fixing things which helps me learn how they work. So I just have them send the part. Having said that I would agree some addl QC pre-delivery is warranted. It would not only help the customer but would help the company as well by reducing calls. Gleaming issues from the forum is all that is necessary ( shavings in water lines). But I will take the unbelievable great service as opposed to a company that gives you the constant run around. If you are a reasonable customer I believe 99 % of issues are resolved to your satisfaction.
 
I believe that 95% of the issues I have had with my RT-27 OB have been due to rushed/sloppy workmanship and poor quality control at the factory. Having said that, the factory has gone, what I consider, above and beyond to help me correct these issues. I do wish that my boat build had been a little slower with higher quality in the first place so I didn't have to deal with the issues.
 
1. boats are not mass produced. there are always issues with new boats. There is an element of managing buyer expectations. You are not buying a car. From what I can see these issues all seem to be taken care of well by the dealer/factory
2. the new smaller and cheaper boats means a broader market appeal and often therefore more less experienced boaters or first time boaters
3. systems and technology never stops and gets more complicated. complicated means more knowledge required to use and maintain
4. The tugs and cutwaters have been so successful that we are now seeing a bow wave (pun intended!) of boats on the second hand market as they represent excellent value. This creates the problem that Andrew mentions: how to support used boat buyers.

Ive given many many hours to answering questions on this site and do it gladly as I enjoy sharing the knowledge I have accumulated from making mistakes and from learning here. - Thank you all.

It would be good to see how FM can get the dealers involved in this site and be part of helping other boats. seems like a win win win (dealer, factory, owners) to me.

I also think there is a ton of high value content now locked up in this site that isnt being best used - especially for the new boat owners who dont have as much access to the factory support.
People often dont search. boat models change and evolve.
Ive often thought about writing a book on top cutwater 28 things to look out for based on the 1297 posts Ive been part of.

another thing the factory might consider is offering a support package (for a fee) for used boaters. dealers could sell it with used boat sales.
 
I understand the challenge of trying to support used boats along with new. I chip in wherever I can to help people out. It would really help if there was a field at sign up for the engine and model number in the poster's boat. So many times I can't tell if someone is asking about a Cummins, Yanmar, Volvo or Yamaha. Also Andrew, many of these questions would be answered if every boat were delivered with a complete manual which includes a complete wiring diagram and plumbing layout. All those manuals should be available online too.
 
Andrew,
Thanks for taking the time to read through this thread and post a respectful and clear response.
I read your response and would like to float an idea to address the new-to-us buyers need for assistance. No, I’m not talking about mechanical problems or repairs, just educating new PNW owners on the specific systems operations of their used model Ranger Tug.
I’m sure there are a million reasons why my idea wouldn’t work. But if it did, it might take some stress off the factory service folks. This idea started with a sentence from Cutwater28GG’s post but he is not in any way responsible for this proposal.
You offer a “Factory Delivery Experience” to new owners. If you had a team of folks acting in conjunction with RT who had experience owning a specific model, and a outline to follow from the factory, and been vetted by the RT staff, who could be available to spend a day or two with new owners going over how to do operate that model of RT. These “contractors“ could be referred to new owners of used boats to give them the kind of education that the new boat purchasers can receive. Perhaps it is a service your Dealers could offer rather than experienced owners.
I’d think that at this point in time there are a number of WA owners who have the experience on say, a R-27 Classic, to provide this service. Customers of this service would need to sign a waiver to cover liability concerns.
I can only say that if this type of service had been available back in 2015, I would have availed myself of it. In 5 years of ownership I’ve learned 100s of little things about best operating practices that I wish I had known on day one.
I have no idea how you would handle compensation for this service, just throwing the idea out there.
 
There is probably sufficient critical mass for an owners association, with chapters on each coast. Which could do some volunteer sessions. A sort of Power Squadron thing.

In the meantime, it remains true that this thread began when significant real issues were raised about the engine compartment and serious electrical installation issues, that have nothing to do with owner education.

Its not just "one thing" about education and a growing base of new-to-me owners, even though education would be great.
 
Regarding construction quality issues....see my post

Construction issue resulting in delamination on 2015 Ranger

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15816

I expect to get good support from the factory.

- Eric
 
It's an interesting idea... offering some sort of training that we, as new owners get (if purchased) to new-to-them purchasers of used Ranger/Cutwater boats.

Andrew's point is a good one, in that they get 40 calls (be them emails, phone, text, Tugnut forum queries, etc.) every day... this would make it quite difficult for the factory, staffed as they are, to accommodate all the used Ranger/Cutwater purchases. And to expect FM to up-staff to accommodate would be monumental in it's scope (since finding new employees is a difficult task, in my experience).

But an Owner's Association/Power Squadron is an interesting thought! Within our community are many that are quite versed and very experienced Salts! To organize something of this nature, as well as find volunteers (or appropriately reimbursed "experts") would be a huge task, but very worthwhile. Can you imagine the benefit to the factory if they had this kind of support!?!

I don't have the answers, but this line of thought is a good one! In 5 years, upon retirement, I may be able to be of service if something of this nature comes to fruition.

I admit, we've strayed off course from the OP's message... so maybe a new thread would be in order....



Great ideas! Great dialogue!
 
Helping a new to Ranger or Cutwater used boat owners out would be a big help to them. I have thought that is what this forum does. New boat or used boat most questions asked on the forum are usually answered by other boat owners of in like kind or general questions of operation of a particular component. Between the factory representatives and forum members most get answered. As the Ranger and Cutwater production line changes there are new question. As the production of the line increases there are more new boat owners in the market but also more used boats or "experienced boats". Regardless new or used it is up to the new owner to do their part. Research and know the boat you are purchasing. If you are a DIY owner hire a ABYC SAMS. surveyor. Go over the items checked with him. Read the report ask questions and know the issues. If you are a turn key boat owner. Get the survey, Find a dealership with good service technicians and build a relationship with them. Hire a delivery captain, let him show you how to operate the equipment. Ask questions ! Most delivery captains are familiar with the systems. They board all different makes and models. The captains are familiar with engine installations ,electrical systems, and most common equipment installed on boats.

Factory deliveries are the best route to go if it is available. If not a dealership should be able to show and explain every system, know how it is installed and most importantly how to fix it. If the dealership fails in any of these categories it is on the manufacture. MY OBSERVATION ! When a customer orders a new boat or purchases an in stock new boat usually the idea is "I'm going to purchase a new boat because I don't want someone else's problems" Good theory, maybe ! That is the way it should be! No matter what you purchase New it is expected to be perfect, untouched , built to the highest standards. If you thought you were not going to get that you would not purchase it. When a manufacture builds a boat, the expectation is the product will be flawless meeting or exceeding their customers expectations. When the manufacture does this along with good customer service the reputation gains them new buyers and repeat buyer which increases the products new and used boat market. Growing pains makes or breaks boat manufactures. In 2014 I started looking at Rangers. I thought the company had a niche in the market. It was a small coastal cruiser that had the all the comforts of home. A combination of the (Seacamper) I know many of you never heard of it but it was made. And the 25 Albin ( my favorite boat ) Unfortunately to slow! I read all the post about how good the customer service was, delivery, how well the boats handled the water and how well it towed. I could never fully interest myself in the purchase because I thought the boats were over priced and the dealer net work was to small.

In 2016 I joined TugNuts and Purchased a new 2016 C26 the last year of production. I thought from everything I read and all the information the dealership presented this was the boat! I did not do a factory delivery. I did not have a full survey of the new boat. I did not go over the boat myself and give it my own survey. I paid for it, took delivery and the fun began.

There were many punch list items like any production boat would have. There wasn't a PDI check sheet, or an engine PDI done. The dealer delivered the boat, answered the questions he could. The dealer did repair a few of the items, but as the items built up and were not completed I started taking things into my own hands. The factory was very responsive to my questions, Richard from parts sent me any parts that were deemed warranty. While this was going on I became very frustrated with my purchase. I seemed to be fixing something all the time. Mostly minor and mostly installation issues not equipment failures. Some of the installation issues didn't create a problem but they could in the future or I just didn't like the way they were done. I thought the installations were not up to above and beyond as I expected from Fluid Motion.

The positive to this. I learned all the systems of the boat. While doing many of the repairs I had to remove fake bulkheads, headliner, engine components, hoses, wiring, I don't think there is an area in my boat that my hands have not been in.

My Observation

The Rangers and Cutwaters are well designed and built well. The manufacture has gone from the small niche Tug manufacture to Planing hull outboards, center consoles, Mid range diesel powered boats and a motor yacht. It's hard to maintain the customer service that so many Tug owners experienced 5 or 6 years ago when a company is growing and expanding. Ranger and Cutwaters are realistically still the new kids on the block when it comes to boat manufacturing. The used Rangers and Cutwaters are actually considered newer used. When I look at used boats I look at boats built in the late 90's or early 2000's to see how they held up over the years. Many still remain in very good condition. Rangers and Cutwaters 2008 or newer is their used boat market.

Quality control is expensive to have and expensive to not have. There are a FEW boat manufactures that went out of business because they could not compete in the market. They would not sacrifice quality for quantity. There is a list a big list of manufactures that did sacrifice quality for quantity. The companies got away with it for a while and expanded. The quality was shifted to the dealers. The manufactures expected the dealers to fix all the warranty issues causing some rigs that were scheduled for 8 hours taking 3 days because of all the issues with the boats. Dealerships at the end of the day were loosing money on the deals. The dealerships dropped the line and moved on to another. Eventually many of those manufactures were no more.

Quality Control has to start at the manufacture. The boat must leave the factory perfect. Anything that happens between the factory and the dealer, the dealer repairs. The owner of the boat should have turn key operation when leaving the dealership. If the new owner doesn't receive turn key that is on the manufacture. I can't judge how Fluid Motion is doing now I haven't purchased another new boat from them. The only gauge I can go by is the amount of questions and issues that are posted here. There are a few 2008 to 2010, there are a few more 2011 to 2014, a few more 2014 to 2016, 2016 to 2018,2019 2020 more and more. The largest complaint is electrical. Most people do not understand electrical. Electrical on the water is more complex then on shore. Electrical is dangerous land or water but needs to be PERFECT on the water. It has to be designed to be fool proof. It needs to be as easy as flipping a switch. It has to be checked rechecked and verified before it ever leaves the factory.

Ranger and Cutwater owners helping each other is a great idea. I feel this forum already does that. Fluid Motion contributing to this forum with service representatives is a key to helping all New and Used owners. They can and do use this forum as a gauge of "How Are We Doing?" I hope so !

I will say I am the first to critique an issue. I will post my opinion. I will post my disappointments, fixes to them if I have found one. I will advise if I have experienced or made repairs to issues. I have sent and received numerous emails and PM's from other TugNuts with advise or received advise. I have also contacted factory representatives. I will admit we don't always agree with the out comes. I will commend them because even with disagreements the customer service group has always responded back to me. There is something to be said about that. Over all my wife and I enjoy our time cruising in our Cutwater, I can find many things I like better in other boats but I'm sure If I owned a different boat I would find many things I like better with the Cutwater. (The water isn't always bluer on the there side of the dock)
 
Brian,
I agree with you! You are probably the worst candidate ever to participate in a class like I was proposing - you know more than 99% of the owner base and probably more than 50% of the RT Staff!
And this forum is a great resource when owners need help when something is amiss with their boat. Or when they want to do an upgrade and need advice.
A lot of new boat owners take the Factory Delivery Experience and rave about it. What I was proposing was something similar for used RT/C boat buyers to help them feel comfortable with and get the most out of their new-to-them boats on day one. For many new to boating they don’t know what they don’t know. Having an experienced owner on board their new-to-them boat walk them through the systems, explain where things are, what basic routine maintenance should include and tricks use the boat more effectively I think would be a help to them. It might also free up the RT/C staff to devote more time to fixing construction issues in the factory and after delivery.
For example, here’s 8 simple things (out of a 100+) that I didn’t know about my R-25 Classic the day I bought it that would have helped me feel more comfortable on day one:
How to put the engine in neutral and rev it up without having the prop spin
Needing to close the sea cock if I ever needed to be towed
How many days of use to expect before my black water tank can go before a pump out was mandatory
Why it’s important to raise the mast after towing when the boat goes into storage
Not to go from port to starboard with the thrusters without a pause between directions
How to use the autopilot and it’s remote
How to use the side step in the cockpit as the ideal location to catch a mooring buoy in the R-25 Classic
Why you never press twice on the Wallace cooktop/Hester on/off switch
 
After reading all the comments on this thread I would like to make the following observation. Prior to owning a C-28 and now an R-29, I owned a 1984 Sundowner 30 foot. No company around for support but there were 15-20 local boats on a forum for help. We were all on our own and learned a lot about our boats through hands on working. Here in the NW we are lucky to have such great support from FM for new and used cutwaters and rangers. The annual Roche Harbor rendezvous is an UNBELIEVABLE customer service event. I think we are spoiled, and we forget what other boaters don't have
My $0.02 worth.
boaterjoe
 
Best thing Pocket Yachts in MD did for us as new-boat "newbies" (2019 R27 OB) was provide (included in purchase) a 2-day orientation with a Staffer & a Captain 'hands-on'!
In October, at haul-out, requested Dealer Service for a couple of minor items -and some more technical repairs were also needed. Told that Service calls would be delayed until Spring -due to Dealer's need to sell at Boat Shows! Owner reluctantly agreed.
BUT by Feb., COVID-19 had shut down Boat Shows -and Dealer's Mx staff was laid off. So Dealer agreed to send the replacement parts -for Owner to have installed locally. Owner did some repairs, but more Technical repairs were needed.
Dealer said, "..have a local Boatyard do repairs, pay them and submit the receipt/invoice to our Service dept. for reimbursement, since submitting small Warranty claims for minor repairs (<$500) is too time-consuming".
Work was completed in March. Paid receipts with the itemized invoice were submitted in May. Since then Dealer has declined to reimburse Owner. claiming "charges seem excessive(?) compared to our costs to do the work" (which Dealer was unable/unwilling to do). Dealer then offered to "split the charges " with Owner..NOT what was agreed-to.
This is a major reversal of RT's historically-reliable reputation for Owner support...in a very short time. Hopefully Service levels/Owner Support will be restored as the Flu danger lessens.
 
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