MY OBSERVATION

[Trisailor]

I bought my 2011 RT 27 used, from the original owner, aside from some issues caused by minimal use, I have been extremely impressed by the build quality and solid construction of Ranger Tugs. I find BB Marine's comments to be spot on. Having worked in residential construction and aerospace industries, I think the issues brought up in this thread and across this forum are wide spread to varying degrees across all consumer manufacturing. With narrow margins on top of ever increasing labor and material costs, producing a quality product is a difficult process. In my estimation, FM is doing a pretty bang up job.
Personally, I want to intimately know my boat, so when i go to sea I can have some sort of idea what to do when that strange noise starts or something critical fails. It's hard to walk home from there.

 

[Dballz]

1. boats are not mass produced. there are always issues with new boats. There is an element of managing buyer expectations. You are not buying a car. From what I can see these issues all seem to be taken care of well by the dealer/factory
2. the new smaller and cheaper boats means a broader market appeal and often therefore more less experienced boaters or first time boaters
3. systems and technology never stops and gets more complicated. complicated means more knowledge required to use and maintain
4. The tugs and cutwaters have been so successful that we are now seeing a bow wave (pun intended!) of boats on the second hand market as they represent excellent value. This creates the problem that Andrew mentions: how to support used boat buyers.

Ive given many many hours to answering questions on this site and do it gladly as I enjoy sharing the knowledge I have accumulated from making mistakes and from learning here. - Thank you all.

It would be good to see how FM can get the dealers involved in this site and be part of helping other boats. seems like a win win win (dealer, factory, owners) to me.

I also think there is a ton of high value content now locked up in this site that isnt being best used - especially for the new boat owners who dont have as much access to the factory support.
People often dont search. boat models change and evolve.
Ive often thought about writing a book on top cutwater 28 things to look out for based on the 1297 posts Ive been part of.

another thing the factory might consider is offering a support package (for a fee) for used boaters. dealers could sell it with used boat sales.

Love the idea of a support package. Would really give piece of mind to used boat buyers. Something I would absolutely pay for.

 

[Dballz]

Love the support package idea. I would entertain that. I’m most likely buying used and that piece of mind would be awesome.

 

[hip82]

While not a Ranger owner yet, what keeps bringing me back to want to be a RT owner is that I'm very impressed by the community and support that Fluid Motion provides. I very much understand the distinction Andrew makes about new vs 2nd, (or 3rd) owner. My local dealer has been incredible supporting me on my quest to purchase an RT, and I think they would provide great post-purchase support.

Maybe this is a simple thought as someone not experienced with the boat market, but has Fluid Motion considered a Certified Purchase Option similar to automobile manufacturers? I see a lot of newer RTs for sale with low hours that could probably be certified by Fluid Motion and offer an extended warranty, or perhaps offer an extended warranty and the same level of customer support as a new owner, even if it came with a nominal fee, or was built into the purchase price for resells through a Fluid Motion authorized dealer?

 

[Jcat2010]

Wow, there's a lot to unpack here, but let me address one aspect - "used" boats. I've owned quite a few boats in 45 years (it's an addiction), most of them used. Every new boat eventually becomes a used boat. Eventually many of new owners will need to sell their, now used, boats. Part of the "Value Proposition" of buying a new boat is the ability to sell and not take a hit when its time to sell. Part of the value proposition for a used owner is whether the builder has a great reputation for supporting the product throughout its life, not just when it is new. Pre-purchase Marine Surveys can go a long way toward finding issues at the time of sale, but they can't help you find a wiring problem that happens after sale, or tell you where the x part is located. Good manuals do that. Good parts manuals help with replacements. Good wiring diagrams, plumbing, etc. I've even owned a few boats where the builder provided photos of the boat during different stages of equipment installation, so you could see where the parts, wiring, plumbing, etc. were and didn't have to ask the factory or other owners. This forum helps a lot. The boat market is pretty efficient at weeding out the good from the bad, and eventually word gets around and some boats depreciate faster than others as a result.

 

[Rocky Lou]

Interesting thread that I plan to read through in detail later.

Anyone who has ever managed a growing business or organization knows the challenges well. You move from personalized 1:1 interactions to scalable offerings. The first step is to leverage partners, something I've done for many years, building distribution networks. The issue here is that you are limited by a. how effective are the partners/dealers and distributors to deliver what your need and b. how effective you are in managing what the dealers are offering and motivating them to invest. I bought my Cutwater from a fantastic dealer who really tried to provide me training and support in accordance with FM's direction. They did their best, but, it was barely adequate and I sensed they didn't think it was a fit with their business model for future boat sales, i.e. too much work for the ROI.

As the number to Tugnutters continues to grow, there has to be scalable offerings rather than one-off replies to an ever increasing amount of requests. When I bought my boat in 2019, I had several lengthy conversations where I tied up FM personnel for hours, sometimes on the weekends. That type of support, while pleasing to customers, is very much not scalable. Other offerings, like 'As The Prop Turns' cover a lot of topics and can be available to a wide variety of applications and customers. Other areas that I think are worth consideration for customer support:

• Much more detailed manuals that show the location of most all of the parts on a particular boat
• Detailed parts list for boats (we all have asked lots of questions about that)
• On line training courses as discussed above
• More 'As The Prop Turns' webinars and I suggest you don't need the full crew, just a couple good presenters.

I owned GradyWhites, 2 of them, before my Cutwater. I found their documentation quite poor, getting answers from the factory almost non-existent, and I was unable to participate in a similar online community that GW fostered. I spend as much time reading Tugnuts as I do for some of my most important interests.

 

[William Sanborn]

I have a history of 45 years working in Dealership for Farm, Construction, Auto and mostly Heavy Trucks. I was involved in Service Management and interacted with Factory Engineering for repair procedures and product improvement. I have owned Racing Sail Boats and they had ZERO factory support, and with my experience was able to cobble, force, or patch up what had failed.
When I Bought our used 2011 Ranger 27 I hired a Survyor and was in her pocket asking questions and listening to her suggestion and taking note. I then found TUGNUTS, and haven't to date had a issue, (Most I knew the answer to), that by searching the Forums confirmed my thoughts and many times lead me to a better fix then I had envisioned. Ranger Tugs are for the most part about as complicated a Boat as you will find, and the systems do require maintenance, and some is above the normal owners pay grade, and that makes TUGNUTS a great resource.

 

[Dcsqatar]

I have owned a number of boats over the years and in my opinion my 2020 R-29S is one of the better, if not the best, quality boat I have owned. Having said that, there is room for improved quality. My experience with new boat delivery is now over 5 years old, but possibly still relevant. I encountered a number of quality issues with my new boat, all of which were fixed by the factory quickly. The Fluid Motion team's response was and continues to be exemplary. I retired as a project manager responsible for some of the largest industrial projects in the world. Along the way I worked as project Quality Manager and helped improve quality management systems for one of the world's leading companies. A key feature is maintaining the belief that perfect delivery quality is achievable, and working diligently with that vision in mind. I noticed when my boat was delivered, and various punch list items were being resolved, that the delivery team had no direct way to feed back quality issues they were seeing to the factory. I was told that they met with the factory/manufacturing team, but that no formal way of relaying quality issues, defining corrective measures (during manufacturing) and tracking corrective actions to closure was used. I discussed this with Andrew and he told me (and I paraphrase) that with such a complex product that quality problems were inevitable. As long as that mentality persists, there will indeed be quality problems. 5 years later, possibly things are different, but if not, developing a punch (deficiencies) list and having a closed loop process that ensures communication to manufacturing and resolution of these issues before they manifest themselves again, is essential.

 

[JeffreyAC77]

My observation is that the customer base for Fluid Motion has changed. By design - literally! My observation is that we have a greater percentage of new-to-boating folks buying the FM products. In the past I think most owners were buying a FM boat as their 2nd to 10th boat. They knew basic boat systems and how to do basic troubleshooting. Not so much with the new-to-boating folks. And thus a lot of operator issues rather than product issues. This means we get more posts on some really basic stuff (like keeping the scuppers clean or where the anchor light switch is located) hitting the forum.
Given FM production numbers are substantially higher than in the good old days, I’m not convinced we are seeing a greater number of serious problems PER BOAT than there was 10 years ago. Just more boats coming out of the factory and therefore more total issues hit this forum...

Based on your post, if true, it seems that FM has not kept pace as their support is lagging behind their growth curve.

 

[RT25_LouLou]

To frame up my post...I am a first-time boat owner, I bought a used 2021 R25 with 75 hours in September of 2023.

1 - the factory responded to me when I had questions during the survey - HUGE!
2 - reputation and commitment to "Quality Cruising and Real Comunity" - HUGE! Culture eats strategy for lunch every time!!
3 - As the Prop Turns videos - are very good. There could be more across a variety of topics and for those first time boat owners
4 - Dealer network could be dramatically improved to have certain levels of certifications and ability to support new or used RT or Cutwater owners - similar to the Yamaha factor training specialists - this has helped me immensely and has been suggested.
5 - Regional FM experts who can be used to support dealers and used boat owners. They do this in other industries - let's call them FM Ambassadors - and they have to go through a training to get certified. This was suggested earlier, so just reinforcing it.
6 - Better and more defined SEARCH tool on Tugnuts. I try to search for my answers before ask. Sometimes the volumes of posts make it hard to sort through the information. Maybe even some type of glossary or index for certain re-occuring topics. Open to ideas.
7 - Apple Care for your Fluid Motion Boats - to respond to @Andrew Custis If used boat people want individualized service or specialized help, then charge them for it. For example, I would have happily paid to get (X amount) of phone calls with a factory rep or certified technician from a dealer.

Lastly, people are quirky. Our expectations and ideas around service vary wildly. Our skills, abilities, and experience with boats, mechanical items, systems and general repair also varies wildly!

I am personally thrilled and proud to be a Ranger Tug owner. I feel the strength of this community and have only benefitted deeply from it. We completed the Triangle Loop this summer and every FM owner we met was wonderful. I love being a part of this community.

Thanks to everyone who contributes.

 

[mlanger]

I would tend to agree with many of the posts on here. The one thing we are starting to see is the number of calls and emails we receive from boats purchased second hand. We get an average of 40 calls a day from people that had practically zero training or orientation where they are now trying to figure out the systems and operations of their new to them vessel. Or, they are now finding issues they need to repair and fix which require time from our end to try and support that the best way we can....

As Andrew knows, I was a loud member of this group. I bought my gently used boat in 2022 -- it had only 30 hours on the engine in 3 years of previous ownership! -- and had to address minor but annoying factory problems that the original owner never fixed. Punch list items. On top of that, I found it nearly impossible to get systems training for the boat. I've since spent 16+ months on the boat, cruising more than 9,000 nautical miles and know the boat VERY well, mostly through my experience and getting questions answered here and by other owners I met in my travels.

What I saw was that in late 2022, right after I bought the boat, I had very little success with factory support. HOWEVER, in the past year or so, I've seen much, much better support with information and parts. (Parts, unfortunately, still has quite a way to go; I sure wish you folks would put a team on that full-time to set up an online shop or reference with links to exact parts.) This forum is a great resource for owners because not only can we ask the factory, but we can also get good information from other users. Until recently, I was addressing most of my questions to the factory because I'd experienced other forums where people with no real knowledge would guess at an answer . I don't want wrong information. But more recently I've gotten GREAT useful, experience-driven information from users here.

I understand the factory's focus on NEW owners, but they also need to understand -- and I think they do -- that word gets around about support on used boats. I'm considering a larger boat that isn't a Ranger Tug for use on the East Coast and one of the things that's holding me back is that boat's reputation for bad support. Why would anyone buy a NEW boat when they have to worry about the possibility of having trouble selling it due to used boat support issues? In the grand scheme of things, it shouldn't matter if our boats are bought new or used. The manufacturer should support all of us. That goes with everything we buy that has a life beyond its original owner -- cars, motorcycles, planes, etc.

As for systems training, I highly recommend that anyone buying a boat who can't get the factory training find an experienced Ranger Tug (or Cutwater, whatever the case may be) owner or captain to provide at least a full day of training for the boat's systems. There are a TON of systems on our boats and they can be quite a mystery until we get training. The factory could help by creating a list of capable owners or captains throughout the country that might be able to provide this service for hire or even just as an owner helping a new friend. Even we users could make this happen by offering up assistance to others in our area.

As far a quality goes, I recently had to jump a hurdle with the company I'll be placing my boat in charter with in Bellingham. They claimed that Ranger Tugs didn't have the level of quality they needed to stand up to charter use. I was deeply offended by this statement. I have no issues with the quality of my boat. I lived on my boat while traveling thousands of miles in all kinds of conditions for 16+ out of 24 months, and had no serious problems with it. Yeah, the bilge pumps needed replacement and I managed to tear all the blades off my stern thruster, but these are wear and tear items. The boats are well built, smartly (for the most part) outfitted, and able to handle rough conditions a lot better than I could. These are great boats! But I do want to encourage folks buying new boats to speak up about any quality issues they find so that the Factory knows what's going on. They can't address quality issues if they don't know about them.

Anyway, that's my take on these issues after 2+ years owning a gently used 2019 R-29 CB.

 

[William Sanborn]

As Andrew knows, I was a loud member of this group. I bought my gently used boat in 2022 -- it had only 30 hours on the engine in 3 years of previous ownership! -- and had to address minor but annoying factory problems that the original owner never fixed. Punch list items. On top of that, I found it nearly impossible to get systems training for the boat. I've since spent 16+ months on the boat, cruising more than 9,000 nautical miles and know the boat VERY well, mostly through my experience and getting questions answered here and by other owners I met in my travels.

What I saw was that in late 2022, right after I bought the boat, I had very little success with factory support. HOWEVER, in the past year or so, I've seen much, much better support with information and parts. (Parts, unfortunately, still has quite a way to go; I sure wish you folks would put a team on that full-time to set up an online shop or reference with links to exact parts.) This forum is a great resource for owners because not only can we ask the factory, but we can also get good information from other users. Until recently, I was addressing most of my questions to the factory because I'd experienced other forums where people with no real knowledge would guess at an answer . I don't want wrong information. But more recently I've gotten GREAT useful, experience-driven information from users here.

I understand the factory's focus on NEW owners, but they also need to understand -- and I think they do -- that word gets around about support on used boats. I'm considering a larger boat that isn't a Ranger Tug for use on the East Coast and one of the things that's holding me back is that boat's reputation for bad support. Why would anyone buy a NEW boat when they have to worry about the possibility of having trouble selling it due to used boat support issues? In the grand scheme of things, it shouldn't matter if our boats are bought new or used. The manufacturer should support all of us. That goes with everything we buy that has a life beyond its original owner -- cars, motorcycles, planes, etc.

As for systems training, I highly recommend that anyone buying a boat who can't get the factory training find an experienced Ranger Tug (or Cutwater, whatever the case may be) owner or captain to provide at least a full day of training for the boat's systems. There are a TON of systems on our boats and they can be quite a mystery until we get training. The factory could help by creating a list of capable owners or captains throughout the country that might be able to provide this service for hire or even just as an owner helping a new friend. Even we users could make this happen by offering up assistance to others in our area.

As far a quality goes, I recently had to jump a hurdle with the company I'll be placing my boat in charter with in Bellingham. They claimed that Ranger Tugs didn't have the level of quality they needed to stand up to charter use. I was deeply offended by this statement. I have no issues with the quality of my boat. I lived on my boat while traveling thousands of miles in all kinds of conditions for 16+ out of 24 months, and had no serious problems with it. Yeah, the bilge pumps needed replacement and I managed to tear all the blades off my stern thruster, but these are wear and tear items. The boats are well built, smartly (for the most part) outfitted, and able to handle rough conditions a lot better than I could. These are great boats! But I do want to encourage folks buying new boats to speak up about any quality issues they find so that the Factory knows what's going on. They can't address quality issues if they don't know about them.

Anyway, that's my take on these issues after 2+ years owning a gently used 2019 R-29 CB.

My Suggestion to anyone buying a boat is to hire a Marine Surveyor with good recommendations and figure on spending a couple of days with them going over the boat, Ask questions, they are working for you. Do an out of the water hull inspection. Mechanical inspection, electrical Inspection, and a Sea Trial. Might cost $500 to $1,000, but when they are done you will have a good indication of what you are buying, or the cost of the Survey might by a good investment as a reason to walk away. I know lots folks who have thought they had the perfect boat and failed Survey save them lots of headaches.

 

[Jcat2010]

A survey is a great "investment" in weeding out the dogs. A buyer focused broker makes it even better. One who will defend your right to get a lot of information before you make a trip or schedule a surveyor. And poke around some candidates that are close. Even then, making sure the previous owner has resolved punchlist items is really important.

Looking back on our buying experience, and all the stuff I had to fix, much of which could have been addressed by the original owner, asking even more questions could have saved us a couple of trips and surveys. Some of the issues were build quality issues, mostly systems, that should have been fixed under warranty, some were build items that didn't show until after warranty, and some were just stuff that happens with boats.

Why the original owners of the surveyed boats didn't get things addressed under warranty is anyone's guess. Maybe they were newbies who just accepted the issues, maybe they never turned stuff on, or maybe it was a pain to get them fixed. I'll never know.

A really good manual and build pics and parts list would have saved a lot of typing on this website, but thankfully this community is robust.

 

[mlanger]

My Suggestion to anyone buying a boat is to hire a Marine Surveyor with good recommendations and figure on spending a couple of days with them going over the boat, Ask questions, they are working for you. Do an out of the water hull inspection. Mechanical inspection, electrical Inspection, and a Sea Trial. Might cost $500 to $1,000, but when they are done you will have a good indication of what you are buying, or the cost of the Survey might by a good investment as a reason to walk away. I know lots folks who have thought they had the perfect boat and failed Survey save them lots of headaches.

This is a GREAT idea, but be sure you hire someone who actually KNOWS our boats. My surveyor had a very easy job and obviously used a template, which he supplemented with photos of my boat. I don't think he any special knowledge of Ranger Tugs. (For example, he recommended getting the gas container out of the propane locker, but that's where it goes!)

Ditto for any captain you hire for training. The first guy I had was a qualified captain but knew nothing about Ranger Tugs. I was concerned when I couldn't find a fuel gauge on my first time out. He poked around in the cave and said "No worries," you're more than half full. Later, when he was gone with my $500 check, I poked around, too. He was reading the WATER gauge! I wound up adding 93 gallons to a 145 gallon tank. Not more than half full.

 

[mlanger]

A survey is a great "investment" in weeding out the dogs. A buyer focused broker makes it even better. One who will defend your right to get a lot of information before you make a trip or schedule a surveyor. And poke around some candidates that are close. Even then, making sure the previous owner has resolved punchlist items is really important.

Looking back on our buying experience, and all the stuff I had to fix, much of which could have been addressed by the original owner, asking even more questions could have saved us a couple of trips and surveys. Some of the issues were build quality issues, mostly systems, that should have been fixed under warranty, some were build items that didn't show until after warranty, and some were just stuff that happens with boats.

Why the original owners of the surveyed boats didn't get things addressed under warranty is anyone's guess. Maybe they were newbies who just accepted the issues, maybe they never turned stuff on, or maybe it was a pain to get them fixed. I'll never know.

A really good manual and build pics and parts list would have saved a lot of typing on this website, but thankfully this community is robust.

The punchlist items took me quite a while to work through. Drawers that wouldn't latch properly, a light in the head that would work when it felt like it, mirrors that show stains because they were apparently glued on, and a leak that the surveyor didn't catch -- even when I pointed out the water stain! (Condensation, he claimed. Bull! It took me more than a year to track down and mostly fix where the water was coming in; it still leaks in super rainy weather when the wind is blowing just right.) All of these things should have been addressed by the original owner and remedied under warranty. Instead, I got stuck fixing them. I sure did learn a lot while doing it, through!

My boat didn't come with a copy of the manual and it wasn't until recently that I got one for the correct model year. It really does need to be expanded. I'm just putting the finishing touches on an "Owners Notes" document required by the company I'll placing my boat in charter with next year. I've got 80 pages so far, with lots of pictures and step-by-step instructions. Creating your own Owner's Notes document will not only make a good reference guide for yourself, but it's great to hand over to the boat's next owner.

One last thing: experience is the best teacher.

 

[Michael11]

My Suggestion to anyone buying a boat is to hire a Marine Surveyor with good recommendations and figure on spending a couple of days with them going over the boat, Ask questions, they are working for you. Do an out of the water hull inspection. Mechanical inspection, electrical Inspection, and a Sea Trial. Might cost $500 to $1,000, but when they are done you will have a good indication of what you are buying, or the cost of the Survey might by a good investment as a reason to walk away. I know lots folks who have thought they had the perfect boat and failed Survey save them lots of headaches.

William Sanborn, I completely agree with your advice!

Four months ago, I was in the same situation—searching for a reliable surveyor for marine survey before buying. After doing some research, I found Kiki Marine Surveyor and decided to get a pre-purchase survey from them. It was absolutely worth it! They conducted a thorough hull inspection, mechanical and electrical checks, and a sea trial, giving me a clear picture of the boat’s condition. Their professionalism and attention to detail helped me make a confident purchase without unexpected issues.

For anyone looking to get a pre-purchase marine survey in Toronto, Ontario, I highly recommend visiting their website. A proper survey can save you from costly mistakes down the road!

 

[kurtwitte]

William Sanborn, I completely agree with your advice!

Four months ago, I was in the same situation—searching for a reliable surveyor for marine survey before buying. After doing some research, I found Kiki Marine Surveyor and decided to get a pre-purchase survey from them. It was absolutely worth it! They conducted a thorough hull inspection, mechanical and electrical checks, and a sea trial, giving me a clear picture of the boat’s condition. Their professionalism and attention to detail helped me make a confident purchase without unexpected issues.

For anyone looking to get a pre-purchase marine survey in Toronto, Ontario, I highly recommend visiting their website. A proper survey can save you from costly mistakes down the road!

Props to Martin at Channel Surfacing for all the Videos he posts with many of R27's owners concerns. 🙂

 

[armor]

My first boat was a new Cutwater 28
My second boat was a new European boat
My third boat is a forthcoming Cutwater 32CB, and I've already been excited about working with both my dealer and the factory so far.

Night and day difference between the support I've gotten from Fluid Motion (Ranger/Cutwater/Solara) vs the European boat. The ownership experience is not just about the purchase, it's about actually using it- and the community/dealer/factory support is simply much better here than it is elsewhere.

You also have to keep in mind what the Fluid Motion brands are, these are boats designed to be affordable and accessible to a lot of people. They pack a ton of features into a small package at a great price. They're not a Princess and they're not trying to be. The Princess (or insert X other high end brand) will have some issues too, and cost you a whole lot more which is inaccessible to most of us here.

The other thing that I will tell you is that the higher the production rate, the better the reliability. One of the advantages that fluid motion has is a pretty high production rate for a boat builder. What's more reliable, a Toyota or a Ferrari?

 

[Submariner]

Props to Martin at Channel Surfacing for all the Videos he posts with many of R27's owners concerns. 🙂

Thank you!!

We have a ton of content sitting with the video editor… (LaZina). More is coming… 🙂

 

[pbjellythyme]

This was an interesting discussion, and I enjoyed reading all of your points of view. Quick question: I just ordered a ‘26 R25, and plan on doing the Factory Delivery Experience next year. Would you all recommend a survey completed in addition to the 2 day factory delivery?