Bottom paint

[baz]

I've received a bid for redoing the bottom paint of our R-25. The fee will be $25/foot meaning $625 for our R-25. This covers paint material (Seahawk or Interlox copper based), labor and cleanup. It would be one coat plus extra painting along the water line.

During March my Edmonds Marina provides a 25% discount for haul out/in including a power wash and placing boat on chocks in the yard with a tarp placed under the boat to collect crud. If sanding or any work that would involve material entering the air a tent must be setup to contain the boats hull.

It seems that all in all the cost will be around $850 including sales tax.

 

[trailertrawlerkismet]

Barry:

This is close to what we paid for our 27. Based on our yard charge for hauling out, power washing, placing boat on blocks and stands and relaunch that cost was $415. I used 2 quarts of Pettit primer and one gallon of Pettit Vivid. When I added the cost of these items, plus tape, Aceton, rags, On Off product to take off barnacle scales I had another $475,for a total of $890. I applied one coat of the primer, per manufactures guide lines, two coats of bottom paint and three at the water line.With all that said the price is about e same, except I did all the labor......not an easy chore.

Jim F

 

[Levitation]

Way to go Jim...

 

[Bruce Moore]

For comparison purposes.

Learned about this at the boat show. While usually associated with much larger yachts, Delta Marine (on the Duwamish River below Elliott Bay) offers the following:

Haul-out & bottom paint package

Up to 50" $22.00 per foot

Includes: haul/launch, pressure wash, and labor to roll one coat of antifouling paint. Second coat $12 per foot. Power and environmental charges included. Price of paint not included - specify paint type when booking.

Chuck Albertson (206) 763-2383
repairs@deltamarine.com

 

[baz]

I had my R25 pulled out of the water this morning, ready for a hull power wash and then into the yard for bottom painting.

My R25 had its bottom painted at the factory or maybe an offsite location just before it was delivered to my Edmonds Marina in Aug 2009. So I have had our R25 in salt water for 2-1/2 years.

This is what I noticed about the hull's condition and what the local Boat Yard facility (Michaels Marine Service) who will be doing the hull re-painting said.

1. An area on the bow below water line on port side had barnacles growing. It was just a small area and as the boat is docked stern-in in my covered slip it's the area that receives the most direct sunlight -- consequently barnacle growth is more likely to occur under these conditions. No other hull area had barnacles. This tells me that stern-in docking is the best for me to avoid large areas of the stern being subject to barnacles. Our covered slip is also useful for protecting the boat's hull from direct sun light.

2. When the yard people gently power washed the hull, large sections of the original bottom paint below the water line easily came off and the ground below the boat was a black sludge due to this.

3. The Boat Yard facility (Michael's) person said the bottom paint should not have washed off that easily and wondered how it had been applied. I told him the factory had done it at time of purchase in Aug 2009. I call Andrew and Jeff Messmer to have them discuss the issue with Michael's. It appeared that our R25's bottom paint was applied after the hull had been chemically etched to allow the bottom paint to stick properly. It seems that this `etching' did not do a good job according to Michael's assessment of how easily the old bottom paint washed off. This means that our R25's hull will now need sanding down properly below the water line and that two coats of paint will be needed in this area... added cost no less as the sanding fee is likely to be around $32/foot, as well as having to `tent' the boat from water line down to avoid sanding dust scattering about into the air.

4. The fixed hinge portion of the trim tabs are showing signs of severe rusting. My thoughts on this is that the trim tab zincs are protecting the tabs but not doing a great job for the fixed hinge portions attached to the transom. I discussed this with Michael's and we agreed to have wire straps connected between the tabs and the fixed hinge. This should provide for a better bonding between the metal fix hinge and the tabs so that the zincs can do a better job. Factory should take note of this IMO.

5. There was evidence of growth particles (areas of pitting) on the bronze rudder. It was decided to have the rudder and its hinge casting painted to protect it from this type of erosion.

6. With the boat in the yard the opportunity to hand polish the hull above the water line is available and Michael's said for me to just come to yard whenever to do this.

7. As I had slightly grounded the boat on soft sand/silt when navigating the La Conner channel a year or so back I took a look at the keel condition. It was in good shape and no damage was observed.

8. I noticed for the first time that the hull shape has large bubbles on port/starboard of the keel. I presume this is to allow the engine to sit lower in the hull to facilitate the near horizontal prop shaft positioning.

9. The scupper for the engine cooling water was not blocked up in anyway... good to know this. 😱

10. All in all, things looked pretty good... but the poor bottom paint application at the factory has added to my cost for this activity this time round.

11. I expect my bill for this to be around $1,500 plus tax.

12. Doing a proper job this time should result in my bill next time to be around $800 in 3 to 4 years from now.

I will post some pictures later.... [Edit] Picture gallery at http://gallery.me.com/barrysharp#100644

[Edit]
After talking with Andrew about improving underwater zinc erosion I will have a transom mounted zinc (6" long and 1" thick). This will be bonded with all the metal pieces attached to the transom such as the swim step bracing and U shaped lugs and bolted through the transom and sealed. A bonding wire will then be connected between this transom mounted zinc and the engine. This hopefully will reduce all the underwater zinc erosion except for the bow and stern thruster zincs which are not bonded to the boats bonding system per Andrew. I estimate the monetary break even point for doing this will be about 1 year as I seem to get through too many underwater zincs over the past few years... I have the underwater zincs checked every 3 months. According to Andrew they install this type zinc on the R29s. 😱

 

[doke01]

Not for nothing but 2-1/2 years for bottom paint is really good where we boat and it sounds like it performed really well if that is all that you had on your bottom. I personally wouldn't complain if my bottom paint lasted this long...I can dream though 🙂

 

[jroyle]

Ditto..I'd be very happy with 2.5 years. Also, I was burning thru 2 trimtab zincs and a complete prop zinc every 2 months in my slip. The transom plate was eaten about 50%. I complained to deaf ears at the marina and low and behold my neighboring slip moved his boat out, a late model SeaRay with twin outdrives (worst invention ever for saltwater), and I haven't seen any further degradation of ANY of my zincs. He never serviced his boat and I suspect my zincs were also protecting his outdrives..I probably should send him a bill. 😀

 

[Stella Maris]

For what it is worth, I asked Dave Livingstone for his thoughts on installing the large zinc plate on the back of Karma. He asked how quickly we were burning through Zincs. When I told him every six to nine months, he said not to do it. One more thing to maintain, two more holes below the water line. We saw vast improvements on the degradation of the zinc's once we installed the galvanic isolator. The last set of zincs stilled looked good when replaced after 9 months.

 

[baz]

Here's my recent history for underwater zinc replacements on our R25. We keep our boat moored at Port Of Edmonds Marina, WA in a covered slip. The boat's bow is subject to direct sunlight at times.

We have the underwater zincs inspected approximately every 3 months. A diver is employed.

Aug 26, 2011
1. Bow/Stern thruster zincs both 50% gone - both were replaced
2. Prop zinc 75% gone - replaced
3. Trim tabs 30% gone - AOK
Cost: $172.83 (includes tax)
Comments: The bow & stern thruster zincs were 50% intact. The propeller zinc was 25% intact. The trimtab zincs are in good condition at 70% intact. The discoloration from corrosion that was noted on the first dive has cleared up. The running gear is quite clean. It appears the schedule should remain at three months.

Nov 28, 2011
1. Bow thruster zinc 50% gone - replaced
2. Stern thruster zinc 35% gone - AOK
3. Prop zinc 85% gone - replaced
4. Trim tabs 35% gone - AOK
5. Bottom paint wearing thin. Barnacle growth on port side bow
Cost: $144.11 (includes tax)
Comments: The prop shaft end zinc was down to 15% intact. The bow zinc was 50% intact. The stern thruster zinc and trimtab zincs were 65% intact. The bottom paint is wearing thin. Some barnacles are growing on the bow.

Mar 2, 2012
1. Prop zinc 90% gone - replaced
2. Trim tabs 80% to 85% gone - replaced
3. Thrusters bow/stern 60% gone - Replaced
Cost: $233.15 (includes tax)
Comments: The main propeller zinc was 10% intact and the trimtab zincs were 15-20% intact. The thruster zincs were 40% intact.

The bow and stern thruster zincs are the most critical ones to keep an eye on. If they erode down to a low percentage the holding screw and metal parts of the thruster become subject to severe corrosion resulting in significant thruster repair cost. The screw and the female threads that secure the zinc once badly corroded will mean there's nothing to hold the small zinc in place. The zincs are very small and do corrode quickly.

The prop zinc gets eaten away very quickly on our R25. 😱

Based on these three inspections I estimate the annual cost for inspecting and maintaining the underwater zincs to be $733.

If I can somehow convince myself that an underwater transom mounted zinc properly bonded to the various transom metal components and engine can reduce the corrosion rate of the prop zinc and trim tab zincs along with preserving the swim step bracings and other transom metals by say 50% then savings can be calculated.

1) The prop zinc costs $25
2) The Trim tab zincs cost $35
3) Currently the prop zinc is being replaced every 3 months or some $100/yr
4) The trim tab zincs are currently being replaced every 6 months or some $70/yr
5) Reducing cost of 3) & 4) by 50% yields $85/yr savings or some $425 over 5 years
6) Transom zinc should also reduce corrosion of transom attached metals and I estimate the annual cost for repairs to be $100 if current situation remains, or over 5 years some $500

So, over 5 years I estimate close to a $1,000 in savings.

If the installation of the transom zinc is around $300-$400 and it does in fact reduce the rate of trim tab and prop zincs by around 50% this seems to be the way to proceed.

Now, I know you can play with numbers all you want and if biased can produce a solution one wants.

I'm certainly open to advice or correction to my assessment of having the transom zinc installed to save the boat's TCO.

Curious to know also what a galvanic isolator installation would cost.... ?

 

[Andrew Custis]

We always let people know that bottom paint "typically" lasts for two years in our neck of the woods. I pulled a boat out of the water today and the trim tabs look new after one year of being in salt water.

As David mentioned, I would suggest looking into a galvanic isolator if your plugged in all the time. As for the transom zinc, I have done tests and it would be a good idea to add a transom zinc in Barry's case.

 

[RICH002]

Baz,
I had the same problem going through Zincs Rapidly and installing a Galvanic Isolator took care of the problem.
As far as cost it has been several years but if memory serves(shakier every year) it was 289 dollars and i did the install myself. I chose one that will"fail to safe" vice one that has a monitoring system. The fail safe was a little more expensive but it simplified the wiring. I was able to buy it from the local elctronics store.
Rt tug went from Zinc replacement every 60 to 90 days to about 9 months. Like your boat Rt stays in the water all the time except for hurricanes and the twice maybe three time a year haulout.

 

[baz]

Baz,
I had the same problem going through Zincs Rapidly and installing a Galvanic Isolator took care of the problem.
As far as cost it has been several years but if memory serves(shakier every year) it was 289 dollars and i did the install myself. I chose one that will"fail to safe" vice one that has a monitoring system. The fail safe was a little more expensive but it simplified the wiring. I was able to buy it from the local elctronics store.
Rt tug went from Zinc replacement every 60 to 90 days to about 9 months. Like your boat Rt stays in the water all the time except for hurricanes and the twice maybe three time a year haulout.

That's an excellent result and a great cost saver indeed. I will certainly be looking at a similar installation. Do you have any feedback on the DIY installation by chance ? Thanks... 🙂

 

[Lobo]

I got a Galvanic Isolator from Defender.com for $100.00. Item No. 204577, a Yandina Waterproof Galvanic Isolator.

Check the yandina website.

Installation: Simple. You just remove the ground (green) wire from your 120V system going into the shore connection plug and insert it into the isolator, and then the wire from the isolator goes into the plug. With a screw mount it to the plywood near the shore power plug and that's it. With a careful inspection, a beer and some dock talk, it should take about 20 minutes.

Dave

 

[baz]

I got a Galvanic Isolator from Defender.com for $100.00. Item No. 204577, a Yandina Waterproof Galvanic Isolator.

Check the yandina website.

Installation: Simple. You just remove the ground (green) wire from your 120V system going into the shore connection plug and insert it into the isolator, and then the wire from the isolator goes into the plug. With a screw mount it to the plywood near the shore power plug and that's it. With a careful inspection, a beer and some dock talk, it should take about 20 minutes.

Dave

Thanks Dave... 🙂 For the R25, is the shore power plug's interior accessible from the forward berth cubby hole door opening behind the helm console ?

 

[RICH002]

Baz,
I had to remove the stbd forward panel under the "helm Cubby" from there easy stuff. I am a retired Electronics Chief from the Navy so i am pretty comforatable with wiring. It is really a pretty simple job. One wire to deal with, The green as stated in the previous post From Lobo. Good luck i think you will be real satisfied with the results we sure have been!

Rich

 

[baz]

This is a follow-up to my previous post in this thread discussing re-painting the hull and adding additional zinc protection.

Our R25's hull has now been thoroughly sanded down to the light blue color with all the previous bottom paint removed and any gel coating removed as well. This will now provide a sound surface condition for the new bottom paint to adhere to. All metal pieces attached to back of the transom have been thoroughly brushed to remove as much rusting as possible.

I selected a Seahawk brand for the bottom/hull paint.

I've lucked out with dry weather for past few days, and hope for one or two more dry ones as well to complete the work in the Marina's yard.

Here's my task list (so far :shock: ) 😀

1) Will apply two coats of paint below water line and one above.
2) Will paint all swim step tubular bracings/brackets and will attached prop shaft type zincs (two piece ones) to unpainted sections of the angled tubular bracing. This is a less expensive solution compared to internally wiring up the transom mounted brackets and bonding them to the boat's bonding system.
3) Will bond the trim tabs to their transom fixed hinge with wire. The transom fixed hinge pieces have several areas that have corroded through completely (see additional photos I've added to my original picture gallery in earlier post).
4) Will paint the trailer tie down D-rings and bond them on the inside to a new transom mounted zinc which will be bonded to the boat's bonding system.
5) Will paint the trim tabs except for the area where zincs are attached and of course leave the zincs unpainted also. 😉
6) Will bond the rudder hinge to boat's bonding system if not already done by factory.
7) Will paint the rudder and rudder hinge to help resist pitting etc.
8) Will place a brush connector to the exposed prop shaft in engine bay and bond it to the boat's bonding system to help reduce the external prop shaft zinc errosion rate.
9) Will install a transom mounted zinc on starboard side and place it outboard from the trim tab hydraulic piston mount. Internally this zinc will be bonded to the transom mounted trailer tie down D-rings. This zinc will be approximately 1" thick and made as large as possible (i.e., using a rectangular shaped one) to maximize its surface area without it protruding beyond the boat's side.
10) Will install most likely, a ProMariner ProSafe FAILSAFE 30amp Galvanic Isolator between shore power connector and the boat's ground bus. The inside of the shore power connector is easily accessed via the panel opening behind the helm in the forward berth, and there's room to install the isolator adjacent to the shore power connector.

After the boat is placed back in the water I will keep track of the zinc errosion and replacement frequency and hopeful can realize a good return on my efforts and investment. 😀 I will post back here in several months time to report what I find.

Question: How long after the hull is painted should one wait before returning the boat to the salt water ? I've been told at least 1 day...

 

[trailertrawlerkismet]

Barry, it looks like you have a big project, keep us all posted after you have some in water experience. Check your Seahawk bottom paint can for the dry time before launch. A lot depends on the temperature, humidity, etc. The Petite product I used said to wait 18 hours, for what it is worth.

Jim F

 

[baz]

Barry, it looks like you have a big project, keep us all posted after you have some in water experience. Check your Seahawk bottom paint can for the dry time before launch. A lot depends on the temperature, humidity, etc. The Petite product I used said to wait 18 hours, for what it is worth.

Jim F

Jim: It sounds like a lot of work/time but I'm paying for most of it to be done by Michaels Marine Service (business located onsite in the yard) at my local Marina yard, and it should be all done by week's end. The cost is very reasonable IMO. I started out with it being around $800 but with the extras I'm asking for will move this up to around $1500. I've posted additional pictures to my original picture gallery at http://gallery.me.com/barrysharp#100644

 

[trailertrawlerkismet]

Since I started this thread about bottom paint, by asking fellow Tugnutters about their bottom paint opinions, I thought I'd report back to anyone interested about the final outcome.

We choose Pettit Vivid for the bottom paint as it is a hard ablative and will wear relatively well for our boating/trailering needs. After the hull was properly prepared, we also applied, per Pettit's advice, their Pettit Skip Sand Primer as the base primer coat. To read about the entire process and see photo's you can visit our blog by clicking onto the attached link.

http://trailertrawlerlife.com

 

[trailertrawlerkismet]

Barry:

I used 2 quarts of the Skip Sand Primer and 1 gallon of the Pettit Vivid. I applied both by a 3/16 nap roller, per the Pettit instructions. One coat primer, 2 coats bottom paint and three at water line. Based on this you should be in the same area for your coverage.

Jim