Converting to Lithium. Installing 4 new Battle Born units.

[Wee Venture]

I have a 2018 Cutwater 24 with the 300 Yamaha and a Abso 20 amp charger. My 2 house batteries are dying and need to be changed. When I purchased the boat, the people I bought it from included solar panels and two LiFePO4 batteries from Battle Born...not installed. I've had opinions all over the place....glad to see all your input.
The problem is that I'm not battery tech savey. I'm nervous about installing the batteries and all the other pieces of equipment that are impacted...ie my thruster and engine batteries. I would appreciate any info that any of you have.

I was hoping someone would respond here who has experience with the Cutwater outboard model which I do not. The project should be doable. Not sure if you have the Yamaha isolator cable supplying your house bank and if so, if that type of charging circuit is current limited or not. Since a lithium battery can suck up a very large charging current, I believe you would need some means of protecting your alternator from overload. If current limiting is not built in you could install a DC to DC charger between the alternator output and your lithium house bank.

Not sure what kind of solar panel controller you have but ideally it would have a charging profile for lithium. If your Abso charger has an AGM profile, that should work for your Battle Born Batteries. If you have an ACR (automatic charging relay) between your house bank and your engine battery, you may need to disconnect that. Otherwise, the charging current your alternator sends to the engine battery will automatically be shunted to the house bank in spite of your attempts to use a current limiter on the direct circuit to the house bank.

The Battle Born batteries are advertised as “drop-in” units because they have their own internal Battery Management System and because they do fine on a charger with an AGM profile. But the “drop-in” verbiage is misleading. Their website makes clear that modifications will need to be made to the system in order to accommodate them.

If you are nervous about installing the batteries but you have some experience with electrical circuits and wiring, you could educate yourself about the electrical system in your particular boat and research about the installation of battle born batteries specifically. Once you have a proposed wiring diagram, you could run it by the techs at Battle Born. I found them to be very helpful.

On the other hand, if this sounds fairly overwhelming you might want to turn the project over to a boatyard or marine electrician who can contract with you to get the job done. If you are based in Gig Harbor you are right around the corner from CSR Marine in Des Moines which does quite a bit of work for Fluid Motion and is a full service boatyard that includes electrical work. There are others in your area as well. You could also post on Tugnuts for recommendations of electrical contractors in your area who do good work.

Good luck!

John

 

[BB marine]

The case temperature was fairly stable between 188 and 192 deg F. This seems to me to be reasonable, though I couldn’t find the specified temperature range for this particular alternator. (If anyone has this info, I’d be interested in knowing.

Rule of thumb is 185F to 220 case temperature. Your output will be lower with the elevated temperatures but you should be fine with an operating case temperature of 190F. If your concerned, installing a small 12Vp 150 CFM blower down by the alternator to help reduce the heat will help maintain full output capability and longevity of the alternator. I installed a 220 CFM blower to move the warm air generated by the alternator and engine. The suction hose was place in front of the engine just above the alternator. This area of the compartment the air temperatures would reach 160F when testing with all compartment hatches closed after an hour of cruising. The D3 has a 180 amp alternator and would operate above 200F when using the inverter and charging the house bank. Between the warm compartment temperatures and the heat generated from the alternator I felt the placement of the blower in this area would help. I did lower the compartment temperature in this area by 30F. I did not check to see how much it reduced the alternator housing temp but I assume it helped.

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[Wee Venture]

Rule of thumb is 185F to 220 case temperature. Your output will be lower with the elevated temperatures but you should be fine with an operating case temperature of 190F. If your concerned, installing a small 12Vp 150 CFM blower down by the alternator to help reduce the heat will help maintain full output capability and longevity of the alternator. I installed a 220 CFM blower to move the warm air generated by the alternator and engine. The suction hose was place in front of the engine just above the alternator. This area of the compartment the air temperatures would reach 160F when testing with all compartment hatches closed after an hour of cruising. The D3 has a 180 amp alternator and would operate above 200F when using the inverter and charging the house bank. Between the warm compartment temperatures and the heat generated from the alternator I felt the placement of the blower in this area would help. I did lower the compartment temperature in this area by 30F. I did not check to see how much it reduced the alternator housing temp but I assume it helped.

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Thanks for the info Brian. I looked over your pictures of your blower installation. Very nice installation and very helpful. I’ll take a few more readings of the alternator case temperature and may do as you suggest if it trends toward the higher side.

John

 

[Kiorana]

We are converting our house bank to lithium. The 3 Battleborn 100 Ah lithiums will be charged by 420 watts of solar with Victron Smartsolar MPPT 150/35, and Victron 12/12/30 DC to DC charger with lithium profile. To protect the alternator, we plan to disconnect the ACR from the engine to house similar to what you have described and will be also be taking the DC to DC charger power from the engine battery to buffer the alternator load. The existing 110 V Promariner 20 amp charger we plan to be using only for the engine/thruster batteries, although it could also be configured for lithium. The engine and thruster batteries are Lifeline AGM. We have the Victron Smart Battery Monitor BMS-712 to see what's going in and out.

I have two questions.
1. Have you had any need for solar to charge the engine/thruster batteries when you are on the hook and shore power is unavailable?
2. You are apparently using the factory inverter/charger 50a output to the house batteries with a smaller 10a charger dedicated to the engine/thruster(via ACR) when on shore power. Has that smaller 10 amp charger been sufficient to keep up the charge on those?

I am rethinking my DC to DC charger selection and probably need to have it switched so that it only operates when the engine battery is being charged by the alternator. The Promariner (configured for AGM) would be only giving up 20 amps to the engine battery and if the DC to DC charger is taking 30 amps, the engine battery would be drawn down at a -10 Ah rate. The Orion 12/12/18 might have been better if I planned to stick with the Promariner 12/20. I may have to bite the bullet and get another larger charging capacity dedicated shorepower charger for the lithiums so I can tank them up at a reasonable rate without draining the engine battery. On the plus side, the Battleborns I got are a GC2 form factor and all three will fit in the R27 battery compartment along with the engine and thruster batteries. A 200% increase in useable house energy with 40% reduction in weight. On the down side, just more BOAT bucks!

Brent

 

[Wee Venture]

I have two questions.
1. Have you had any need for solar to charge the engine/thruster batteries when you are on the hook and shore power is unavailable?

Good question, since the Victron solar controller has only one output, which I connected to the house bank. And no, I haven’t found a need for solar on the engine or thruster bank. I took all meaningful parasitic drains off the those batteries (most notably the propane solenoid). We don’t use those batteries much and when we do, the alternator has an opportunity to recharge at least the engine battery if not both. If we did have an issue, I could use the battery combine switch to get me started again, then the alternator would help support the thruster battery. In a worst case scenario, I have a Honda 2000 generator which, when plugged into the shore power inlet, would recharge all three banks.

2. You are apparently using the factory inverter/charger 50a output to the house batteries with a smaller 10a charger dedicated to the engine/thruster(via ACR) when on shore power. Has that smaller 10 amp charger been sufficient to keep up the charge on those?

Yes the 10amp charger has been more than adequate, mainly because the batteries don’t get drawn down very far and when we plug into shore power, it almost always is at least overnight.

I am rethinking my DC to DC charger selection and probably need to have it switched so that it only operates when the engine battery is being charged by the alternator. The Promariner (configured for AGM) would be only giving up 20 amps to the engine battery and if the DC to DC charger is taking 30 amps, the engine battery would be drawn down at a -10 Ah rate. The Orion 12/12/18 might have been better if I planned to stick with the Promariner 12/20. I may have to bite the bullet and get another larger charging capacity dedicated shorepower charger for the lithiums so I can tank them up at a reasonable rate without draining the engine battery. On the plus side, the Battleborns I got are a GC2 form factor and all three will fit in the R27 battery compartment along with the engine and thruster batteries. A 200% increase in useable house energy with 40% reduction in weight. On the down side, just more BOAT bucks!

Brent

I am using the Orion-Tr Smart DC-DC 12 | 12 - 30 isolated charger (two of them actually for 60 amps). They can be configured to turn on only when they sense a charging voltage from the alternator (or stator) and turn off when the engine shuts down, so they don’t drain the engine battery. I installed a small relay so that when shore power is connected, it shuts off the DC-DC charger so that the Orion unit doesn’t see the voltage from the 10 amp charger and think the engine has started.

Regarding the 55 amp factory charger, my Kisae unit finally died (ironically not long after I posted a comment on another thread about how well it worked). I’m pretty sure this was unrelated to the Battle Born installation. So actually this gave me an excuse to get a new 3000 watt Xantrex Freedom Pro Marine inverter/charger. I’m in the middle of installing it now. It has almost the same footprint but it will charge the house bank at 150 amps so much faster.

John

 

[Heronboy]

So actually this gave me an excuse to get a new 3000 watt Xantrex Freedom Pro Marine inverter/charger. I’m in the middle of installing it now. It has almost the same footprint but it will charge the house bank at 150 amps so much faster.

John

Very curious to hear about your experience with the Xantrex. I replaced my Kisae about a year ago when it crapped out. It took out all the batteries when it went. That was an expensive week.

I didn't really want to put a Kisae back in but the wiring was so short it was the only option that would work without major additional work I wasn't willing to do.

 

[Wee Venture]

Very curious to hear about your experience with the Xantrex. I replaced my Kisae about a year ago when it crapped out. It took out all the batteries when it went. That was an expensive week.

I didn't really want to put a Kisae back in but the wiring was so short it was the only option that would work without major additional work I wasn't willing to do.

So sorry to hear about your experience with the Kisae. I guess I should be thankful. It was only the inverter/charger that died in my case.

I think the 2000 watt model Xantrex Freedom Pro Marine would have worked for you. It mounts in the same way as the Kisae (if your original unit was mounted the same as ours on the outboard wall of the port lazarette) and is close to the same size. Since the connections for the AC line voltage cables are on the forward end of the Xantrex case, rather than the cables looping around to the aft end as with the Kisae, there is cable to spare. You might have had to mess with a couple of battery cables but they also connect to the forward end. The biggest issue might have been with the case ground, which attaches to the top of the case rather than the bottom as with the Kisae.

I chose the Xantrex mainly because it would mount in the same place and I wouldn’t have to sacrifice any meaningful storage space. Also, Xantrex seems to be a reputable company that has been around for quite a few years, their products get pretty good reviews and I have had a Xantrex battery monitor for several years now that I have been quite happy with.

I did end up getting the 3000 watt model which made the installation more complicated. E.g., recabling our house bank batteries to 4/0, increasing the gauge of the AC out cable, installing a heavier duty inverter battery switch, running a heavier duty case ground back to the ground bus on the starboard side, and a few other items that I thought would be improvements though perhaps not necessary.
Just finished the installation and so far it works great. We’ll see if it stands the test of time.

John

 

[FlyMeAway]

Renewed interest in this thread / upgrade and may be asking quite a few questions. The cost difference battery-to-battery has dropped as lithium has gotten cheaper and high-quality AGMs have gotten much more expensive.

First question: why did you get two 30A DC-to-DC instead of one larger DC-to-DC? (I would think a single 60A would be cheaper than two 30A?)

 

[Wee Venture]

First question: why did you get two 30A DC-to-DC instead of one larger DC-to-DC? (I would think a single 60A would be cheaper than two 30A?)

Good question. First of all, I consulted with the Battle Born factory techs and wanted to get all major equipment pieces from them so if something didn’t work, I would avoid the “passing the buck” tendency where every vendor wants to blame someone else’s equipment. BB recommended the Victron charger. Also, I do like Victron equipment for this type of application and Victron doesn’t make a 60A 12V DC-DC charger. As I recall, the Battle Born store sells a Sterling 60A 12VDC-12VDC charger but there was a problem with that one in my configuration—I think it wasn’t isolated as I recall. I also wanted the redundancy (if one went out I would still have half my charging capability.)

But the the most important reason I went with two 30A chargers is so that I would have an easy way to toggle half my charging current off and on in case my alternator started to get overheated. I was planning to do that automatically with a thermal sensor and a relay. (Lithium batteries are kind of like a black hole when consuming charging current which is why you need a limiting DC to DC charger in the first place.) Turns out the alternator has run cool enough with all 60 amps that I haven’t needed to do that.

John

 

[sfladgard]

Interested in the same change; why use isolated dc to dc charger instead on non isolated?

 

[Wee Venture]

Interested in the same change; why use isolated dc to dc charger instead on non isolated?

In most cases it wouldn’t matter, since all power sources on the boat—batteries, alternator and chargers—are connected to a common negative ground. In my case, I connected both the input and output negative cables to the same negative busbar anyway.

However, the isolated model was specifically recommended by Battle Born. I think this is because the unit has a special algorithm to detect when the engine is running, particularly with a smart alternator where the voltage may drop at times but the engine is still running and the alternator is still charging. It depends on measuring the voltage drop across the input cable with and w/o current flowing and comparing the readings. I think they’re worried that with a common ground, potentially small changes in voltage across the input cable could be obscured. At least that’s my best guess. The non-isolated Victron Orion model also has detection for engine shutdown but it works a bit differently and may not work as well.

This link gives more about how the isolated algorithm works:
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/do ... ger-EN.pdf

John

 

[FlyMeAway]

Thanks! Ok next question: why the Marinco 10A instead of Victron, when a lot of the other gear is Victron (which seems to have good consolidated monitoring / configuration capabilities across their products)? I guess the question applies to the Xantrex too.

 

[Wee Venture]

Thanks! Ok next question: why the Marinco 10A instead of Victron, when a lot of the other gear is Victron (which seems to have good consolidated monitoring / configuration capabilities across their products)? I guess the question applies to the Xantrex too.

I think the Victron charger would be a fine choice. One advantage would be that you could view it on Bluetooth along with the other Victron equipment. I went with the Marinco charger because I have had good past experience with them and I wanted something that was small, bombproof and set and forget. Just wanted 10A because I felt that was sufficient to keep the engine (and thruster) battery topped off and I didn’t want to put too much extra load on our 30A shorepower. Since the engine battery charger is wired to a breaker that is not supplied by the inverter, the inverter/charger cannot take it into account when tailoring the charging current that goes to the house batteries, raising the possibility of tripping the main breaker. So the 10A charger just adds 1 amp or so to the shore power load. For whatever it’s worth, the Marinco has highest rating of IP68 compared to IP67 for the Victron units though that’s not a big deal.

Regarding the Xantrex inverter/charger, I went with this unit mainly because it has almost the same footprint as the Kisae that it was replacing, simplifying wiring and sacrificing little to no storage space in the lazarette. It has a dedicated lithium setting and it also has a remote panel with a Bluetooth link, which works quite well (I did have to install a firmware update to get it working reliably though). I already have a Xantrex battery monitor and know people who have had good experience with Xantrex inverters. However, having said all this, I do think Victron makes great equipment and there is something to be said for staying with the same brand. If you have a good solution for mounting the Victron inverter/charger, I think it would be a great choice.

John