Electrical gremlins

BobBob

Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2019
Messages
16
Fluid Motion Model
C-302 C
Vessel Name
Red Rover, Red Rover
First post here. Main breaker keeps popping. Usually when I am not around. I have isolated it to the 110 volt outlets, but when I plug the item back in it works fine. So far, I have pulled the shore power receptical and installed a Smart Plug. Replaced 6 batteries because the inverter tried to use the batteries, after main breaker popped, to power a small heater in the head. (Learned the “turn off the inverter lesson”). Last time I returned to check the boat again the main breaker had popped again. Help?
 
I think you will have to turn things off one by one to see what is popping the breaker. On the other hand...........

Not knowing the boat, if you have the A.C., hot water, fridge and more you may not pop there own breakers. But you may pull more than 30 amps.

On shore power tower, check to see that hot, neutral and ground are all good. Maybe even try another tower. Its too easy to do just to rule it out. Better still, is anyone else around you have any problems too.
 
When you state main breaker. Are you referring to the main 30 amp breaker at the panel or the ELCI ? What is the item that is plugged into the outlet? There is a big difference between the ELCI and the 30 amp breaker at the panel. The ElCI will trip if it senses an imbalance between the Hot and neutral. If the item you are plugging in to the outlet is malfunctioning after getting warm or operating causing a circuit to leak to ground this will cause the ELCI to trip. If the 30 amp main breaker is tripping it is more than the outlet circuit causing the issue or load. It is a combination of several circuits tripping the main. The item plugged into the outlet should trip the outlet breaker before it trips the main if it is the cause. The first item to determine is which electrical devise is tripping Main or ELCI.

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... egUIARD5AQ
 
BB marine":184gurlz said:
When you state main breaker. Are you referring to the main 30 amp breaker at the panel or the ELCI ? What is the item that is plugged into the outlet? There is a big difference between the ELCI and the 30 amp breaker at the panel. The ElCI will trip if it senses an imbalance between the Hot and neutral. If the item you are plugging in to the outlet is malfunctioning after getting warm or operating causing a circuit to leak to ground this will cause the ELCI to trip. If the 30 amp main breaker is tripping it is more than the outlet circuit causing the issue or load. It is a combination of several circuits tripping the main. The item plugged into the outlet should trip the outlet breaker before it trips the main if it is the cause. The first item to determine is which electrical devise is tripping Main or ELCI.

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... egUIARD5AQ

I did not know ( my boat is coming ) that it uses a ELCI breaker. Good to know, thanks.
 
Thanks to all who responded.
It is the ELCI that is tripping. I can’t seem to correlate any one plugged in item with the tripping. Thought it was a light switch causing the problem then thought it was the Heater in the engine bay. I don’t Really understand the hot/ neutral imbalance concept.
Is it possible the inverter charger is malfunctioning?
 
Is there a way to test for the imbalance?
 
The ELCI is doing the test. If it trips you have an imbalance (likely from leakage to the safety grounding wire). Disconnect all plug-in devices and see if it recurs. If not, then plug in each to determine which one. If it recurs with all plug-ins removed then shut off all the individual breakers and turn on one at a time to find the culprit.

Curt
 
There are all kinds of reasons for this issue. There is test equipment available thru Blue Sea but it is only distributed to ABYC electrical certified technicians. An inductive ammeter that can test for the current leak .004 amps will work but the meters are expensive.

I had this issue from day one after purchasing our C26. I found that when the boat was built the technician failed to tighten the wire connectors at the shore plug receptacle. I could plug in fine but when I started to use power from different 120V devises it would trip the ELCI. The loose connection would cause arching when a larger amp load was applied. When I checked the connections during my troubleshooting I found the connections burned. I replaced the connectors and receptical and this fixed the issue. Before I troubleshot the issue I had the Cutwater dealer troubleshoot the issue (warranty) and he kept telling me I'm not plugging it in right and all I have to do is reset the breaker??? Make sure if you have a technician troubleshoot the problem he is ABYC trained electrician. Many dealerships do not employ ABYC trained technicians.

It could be your inverter not switching properly and leaving the ground and neutral connected

It could be a house hold devise that you are plugging into an outlet that is not wired properly.


Rather than going through a list I found this portion of an article from Passagemaker. It is a good informative article.




Likely Culprits

Let’s look at the most common situations that create neutral-to-ground leaks:

Household appliances can come with a direct neutral/ground connection. Houses don’t have the same safety issues as boats. If you are installing a household appliance (refrigerator, washing machine, etc.) on your boat, it must be checked for a neutral ground connection and then the connecting point must be identified and disconnected. An ohmmeter can be used to check for any continuity between neutral and ground on the unplugged appliance.

Inverters provide an abundance of potential problems. If the industry presented an award for the device most likely to be improperly installed, inverters would win and there wouldn’t be a second place. First and foremost, the inverter must be marine rated. Earlier we talked about the need to connect the neutral and grounding wires at the source of power, but not on the boat. Inverters (generators and isolation transformers) become the source of power when producing AC power from the batteries and must have a neutral-to-ground connection.

Inverters must have a way to make that connection when in use and to disconnect it when shorepower is present. The inverter senses the presence of shorepower and then goes through a synchronization process that switches over to shorepower and breaks the neutral-to-ground connection. Some AC circuits might be in use during this switching process, and that can cause a momentary shot of amperage from neutral to ground, tripping the ground fault device. If this problem occurs on your boat, try turning off all AC loads when plugging in (you should do this step regardless), allow the inverter a full minute to go through its switching sequence, and then turn the loads on.

Electric water heaters can create leaks as the insulation on the element breaks down. AC current leaks into the water and to the case of the heater and finds its way into the grounding circuit. Exterior leaks can also create problems as moisture or corrosion on the electrical connections creates a path to ground.

Air conditioning compressors contain insulated electrical windings. Over time the insulation breaks down and can lead to electrical leaks. If turning the air conditioning on trips the ground fault device, you might need a new compressor.

Shorepower cords and shorepower inlets can suffer from exposure to salt water. Corrosion can build up, providing a path for leaks between neutral and ground. Inspect the ends of the cords the receptacle/inlet for green crusty buildup, discoloration from excessive heat, and pitting from arcing.


Incorrect wiring by untrained technicians or boat owners often leads to neutral-to-ground connections. Aftermarket products that are not intended for marine use and/or are improperly installed can lead to trouble.

Solutions

The onboard ground fault issue can be resolved through proper installation of an isolation transformer. Unfortunately, that option is not practical for most cruisers due to cost and space requirements. If your boat has 50A/220V AC shorepower and does not have an isolation transformer, now would be a good time. For everyone else we can expect a few more years of transition as the industry responds to evolving codes and standards. If you have not run into this problem yet and have a trip planned, consider hiring a marine electrician to give your boat a shorepower health check. The money will be well spent, resulting in a safer boat and one that can travel and still find access to shorepower.
 
Brian,
I can’t thank you enough for your reply.
I too found a loose ground on the back of the shore power receptacle. Replaced with Smart Plug, problem persisted.
Unplugged everything and left the boat for a few days. Retuned today and shore power was on...good news, but batteries were at 12.27v. The “ charge “ light on the inverter was blinking. So I started the engine and charged the batteries to 13.2v. My precious new batteries!
I have a request into ProMariner to see if they have a test for charging.....before I tackle the ELCI problem.
Stopped by a local marine repair yard and the want me to bring the boat in, which I will do, but the problem bugs me and I would like to try to fix just to increase my understanding of the boat systems.
Any ideas will be much appreciated

Bob
 
Our boat does already have an isolation transformer.
Bob
 
BobBob":2o451ell said:
Our boat does already have an isolation transformer.
Bob


There is a difference between an isolation transformer and a galvanic Isolator. Both serve the same purpose on boats, galvanic isolation.The isolation transformer separates two electrical systems with no connectivity but energy it still exchanged through induction. It basically eliminates any hard-wire connection between the dockside AC power system and the AC power system on board your boat. A galvanic isolator blocks low voltage DC current from entering the boats green ground wire. The isolation transformer is heavier and cost more than an galvanic isolator. Most 30 amp systems use galvanic isolators. Confirm which type of protection you have.

BobBob":2o451ell said:
Any ideas will be much appreciated

The ELCI did not trip when all 120V panel breaker were off ?

Was the Promariner charger on when you left the boat and ELCI did not trip? If it was on and the batteries were at more than 50% discharge it seems you have issues there too.

As Curt stated the boat owner's test without electrical test equipment is a process of elimination.

Confirm that the local marine repair yard as a ABYC certified electrician. If not they most likely will do process of elimination.

If you have not tried another shore power receptacle I would just to rule that out. Or have the marina test the receptacle. The test usually needs to have a load on it to show a fault.

Electrical issues are complicated to troubleshoot but usually easy to fix once the culprit is discovered.
 
Brian and Curt,
Thanks for your encouragement and support.
Today I discovered my mistake with the charger. Did not have the rotary switch in the on position connecting the batteries to the charger. Charger now working, batteries at 13.2v.
Tested the plug-in devices for neutral/ ground connection with continuity test on plug between ground and positive and between ground and neutral. Two items passed. Two did not.
Plugged in the passing Caframo heater and 750 watt heater, switched on the panel switches on at a time and all was well. Yes! progress. Unplugged everything and turned all panel switches off before leaving boat. Still concerned that the ELCI will trip and the inverter will power the load, which will draw the batteries down unexpectedly.
ProMariner sent a troubleshooting guide for the inverter/ charger in response to my request, so that will be my next step.
Thanks again for the support. I will report progress.
 
BobBob,

You can set up your transfer switch in your inverter to not turn on automatically when shore power is absent. The instructions for doing so should be in the manual. This would at least allow you to avoid having the inverter draw down the batteries if the main breaker trips.

Curt
 
Thanks Curt,
Great idea. I have researched the manual and searched the internet but can not seem to find directions on how to disable the transfer switch when disconnected from shore power.
This is exactly what I would like to do.
I will ask the factory.
Bob
 
Red Raven":24jx7htl said:
BobBob,

You can set up your transfer switch in your inverter to not turn on automatically when shore power is absent. The instructions for doing so should be in the manual. This would at least allow you to avoid having the inverter draw down the batteries if the main breaker trips.

Curt

When I installed my inverter with transfer switch I did exactly that. I by-passed the transfer switch completely. In doing so you must confirm that the neutral and ground wires coming from the inverter are wired into the rotary switch correctly. They must be isolated from the panel when using the shore power and generator.

One of the operations of the built in transfer switch is to open both neutral and ground circuits coming from the inverter. If this feature is not working properly your neutral and ground that are connected at the inverter could cause the ELCI to trip.

Neutral and ground are connected together at the power source.Therefore, it is vitally important that the connection between the AC safety grounding wire and the neutral wire occur only at the power source. That means, at the onshore transformer supplying the dock shore cord, or at a generator or inverter—when and only when one of those is supplying power to the vessel.

The reason I by-passed the transfer switch, I have my complete panel wired to my inverter. I have to use power management. I did not want my inverter coming on everytime I unplug the boat. I am now using separate charger and inverter so I can control this better. The Promariner 1230 charges all batteries with the inverter battery switch off. To use the inverter I have to turn on the inverter battery switch, select the inverter position on the rotary switch, turn the inverter on this is all done at one location at the panel bulkhead, then power manage the 120V circuits. Keeping the charging system and inverter separate reduces battery issues in my opinion. The other reason I went this route is the Promariner Charger/inverter uses a modified sine wave the Kisae is a pure sine wave inverter.


The inverter transfer switch may or may not be working properly in your Charger/inverter. By-passing the feature is another process of elimination with the ELCI trip. By-pasiing the feature will save your batteries until you figure out why the ELCI is tripping.
 
Hey Curt,
Can’t thank you enough for your support.
Males sense to be able to disable the transfer switch. I am still hoping to find the culprit that causes the ELCI to keep tripping.
Our inverter/ charger is a PRoMariner Combi 2500 QS. No response from the manufacturer to my questions yet, although they have been responsive to earlier requests.
I will continue to update,
Bob
 
BobBob":2dm1fe9x said:
Hey Curt,
Can’t thank you enough for your support.
Males sense to be able to disable the transfer switch. I am still hoping to find the culprit that causes the ELCI to keep tripping.
Our inverter/ charger is a PRoMariner Combi 2500 QS. No response from the manufacturer to my questions yet, although they have been responsive to earlier requests.
I will continue to update,
Bob

Per the Pro Mariner Combi 2500 QS manual set the switch the the “ Power on without auto standby” setting. I “ think” this is the setting furthest down labeled with two dashes instead of one. The manual is not really clear.

http://www.promariner.com/~/media/inriver/353115-36025.pdf


Curt
 
Brian,
Thanks for your thorough explanations. I am certainly learning here.
I was trying to operate my system the way you are operating yours, unbeknownst to me the batteries would not charge with the the inverter rotary switch off. Learned that lesson.
My current theory is that the transfer switch is not working properly, but I need to recreate the condition where the ELCI will trip while I am on the boat. Wish I had known all of this when I first had problems.
Best,
Bob
 
Curt,
I will try that setting next time on the boat. Thanks!
Bob
 
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