Electrical System Questions

Status
Not open for further replies.
Bill, you are still looking to spend "money" - which gives me the shiverin fits...

1. Your factory alternator is just fine... Lots of Tugs out there cruising with the factory set up... Until you have done at least one good cruise that proves otherwise, I would not change it...
If you are concerned about boiling the start battery follow Bob's advice and put a battery switch in the start battery to take it out of the circuit... (the negative lead is my preference for this) I would not do that until I see evidence that battery is taking more water than the others... (don't forget the thruster battery)

2. Buy a pair of golf cart batteries for the Starboard locker... They start at $75.. The more you pay the better the battery (usually)...
Get #2 wire and the 5/16" x 3/8" terminal lugs from Jamestown... Also the 3/4" dia. shrink tube with adhesive liner...
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com item #ANC 306503
(a 25' roll of red #2 is $75 - and paint the negative run with black paint at the terminal ends)
Put a battery switch (Blue Seas) in the positive line close to the battery set in the starboard locker... (lots of vendors on the web, including Jamestown)

The lug crimping tool is best bought from ebay such as item # 400193451060 or #250506888778 or similar...
This is not rocket science and I know YOU can do it...

3. The factory price of a solar panel is too much - they do have to make a profit and I do not begrudge them that - though I am unlikely to pay it...
Go to the Northern Arizona web site and talk to them... A single panel is ~ $300 - $500 and the charge controller is ~$70 and a bit of #14 wire... The cost of mounting is depends on how resourceful you are... I am adding a panel because I like redundancy...

4. The cut out relay for the ACR(s) when on shore power is necessary or there is absolutely zero point in having that expensive multibank charger... Fixing it is an $8 dollar relay from DIgiKey and a bit of #18 wire and less than 2 hours of your time... Just do it...
OTOH, Dr. Bob will just put a manual toggle switch in the negative line from the ACR(s) and flip it himself - he knows that parts left back on the distributor's shelf don't cost money and don't burn out when you are far from the marina... Listen to Bob, he has forgotten more about boats than I will ever know...

cheers,
 
Thanks for the kind words--Denny. You give some very practical and wise advice! I agree with living with what you have and see how it works--along with the addition of Golf Cart batteries. 2 to 4 of them will give you an excellent bank which should last several days between charges. I generally use Trojan, since they are reliable, consistant, and often you can find a wholesaler who will give a good price. Costco and Sam's club also have excellent prices and sometimes slightly lighter (less lead) batteries.
 
And one last shot at the target here, Bill...
Don't be over concerned about boiling the start battery when charging from the engine... Let us reason together here...

Let's say the house battery has been pulled down to 12.15v, which is ~50% discharged...
Now you start the engine, which starts up promptly, and the start battery is still at 12.7 volts which is 90%+ charged...

So, we are worried that the house battery is going to call on the alternator for mucho current and that in 20 minutes, or so, the start battery will be overcharged and bubbling like mad... BUT - remember that as soon as the ACRs see 13 volts for 90 seconds (or 13.6 v for 30 seconds) they will snap shut and connect the start and the house in parallel...

Now the house battery at 50% charge is avidly sucking electrons and that peppy little start battery at 90% charge has lots of loose electrons to donate, so there is a rush of current from the start to the house - until the voltages are equal... (the rush can be hundreds of amperes during the initial surge) In a few minutes the charge levels of both the start and house batteries will be equalized, and the alternator will not be overcharging the start battery compared to the house set
(there is a bit more to the relative charge acceptance of the various cells making up the individual batteries, but that does not change the basics we have just reasoned out together)

So, don't worry 🙁
Be happy 😀
 
Thank you all for the good common sense.

What type of batteries would you suggest for the house bank expansion? I see that folks favour the flooded 6 V golf cart batteries, but how about the Mastervolt SL 12/200 batteries which are 12 V AGM? They are much more expensive, but if the literature is to be believed, you get to discharge AGM's to 80% vs 50% for flooded. Here is a bit of analysis:

1. If you look at available AH, AGM have the advantage
4x 6V Flooded 430 AH x 50% = 215 available AH
2X 12V AGM 400 AH x 80% = 320 available AH

2. If you consider price per available AH it is a tie.
4x 6V Flooded 215 available AH price $ 840 = $3.91/AH
2X 12V AGM 320 available AH $1,260 = $3.94/AH

3. If you consider the number of cycles, the advantage is clearly with the flooded as they get 700 cycles vs 300 for AGM.

4. If you consider weight, maintenance and size, the AGM are a little ahead. AGM can also be put inside the cabin. This is advantage in the winter in the PNW as batteries AH are very senstive to temperature. I could put them in the coffin berth. A battery at room temperature has a 25% greater capacity than a battery near freezing.

Who do you think is the winner?

cheers Bill
 
Bill,
If you were to replace all your batteries with AGM, and your charger supports AGM, that would be fine. Most chargers I have looked at have to be configured for either AGM or flooded, not both. As a rule, you should not mix the types of batteries supported by one charger. Unless of course you want to have two chargers.

The big boats that have flooded starting batteries and AGM house batteries have two or more charging circuits to handle the different type of batteries.
 
AGM batteries require no different charger setting than flooded batteries, They both charge at the same rate.
Gel batteries are the ones that require special care when charging.
That said, I still wouldn't mix battery types, any more than I'd mix battery ages, of even the same battery in the same bank. It's hard enough to find 2 perfectly equal NEW batteries always check the production dates, especially with AGM's, some places have some pretty old stock at sale prices ( sometimes over 2 years old ).
 
I have seen some chargers that require different settings for each type of battery, and do not allow mixed installations. Some chargers do not like flooded starter batteries and flooded deep cycle installed together.
 
I have to somewhat disagree with "Slackwater Jack". Although you can use the same charger for both flooded lead acid batteries (FLA) as AGM, the charging characteristics are considerably different. There are chargers which are designed for AMG's which allow for the more rapid charge which they will accept. Part of this is due to the lower internal resistance of the AGM (High quality such as Concorde AGM) have resistances as low as 2% vs some FLA having a much higher internal resistance (as much as 20%). This higher resistance causes more of the energy from the charing source to be lost as heat, rather than charging the battery. The danger, as I pointed out--is that the charger/alternator may overheat, due to prolonged high output, unless designed for this. Is this a practical matter in the Ranger 25 to 29?--probably not.

MasterVolt makes high quality products. But the MasterVolt SL12/200 are not true traction batteries. They are slightly under 200 amp hours--The size is non standard ( 22,05" long x 4,96"wide x 11,02" high) They are very expensive ($555 plus shipping of 120 lbs!)--the two golf carts with about the same capacity would be about 25% of that price. There is no question that you could draw more current (deeper discharge) out of that battery (as perhaps any high quality battery--such as Rolls-Surette in the FLA category). But the deeper the discharge, the shorter battery life. This general principle will hold true for even a high quality battery. The general rule of thumb is that if you cycle to 80% you will get half the life span out of a battery that is only cycled to 50%--and if you only cycle 10% (hard to do) you will get 5x the life span of a battery which is 50% discharged. (Other factors include temperature, length left discharged, how charged etc) The question you have to ask is it worth the extra cost to do that deeper cycle, with a shorter life span. It may be worth it to you, and you may not deep cycle the battery enough to make that much difference. I personally would put in 4 golf carts, have considerably more capacity than the MasterVolt, and cost about half. But again, that depends on if you need non maintance, in the cabin and in unusual position batteries--if this is essential--then go AGM.
 
Quoting from West Marine's "West Adviser" (my highlighting);

"The "Ideal Charge Curve"

Bulk Phase: This is where the heavy lifting takes place. Charge at a rate up to 20%-40% of C to a voltage of about 14.4 volts (gel: 14.1V). For example, a 200 amp-hour battery would be charged at 40-80 amperes. This will bring the battery to about 75% of full charge, and is efficient (more amp-hours per hour of charge time) since the battery accepts more current when it is discharged. AGMs require slightly different voltages, and unless there is an AGM setting, should be charged using lead-acid settings.

Acceptance Phase: Maintain battery at 14.4 volts (Gel: 14.1V) while the amperage is steadily reduced. This will restore the next 25% of capacity at a declining rate. Your battery can be considered fully charged if it will accept current equal to 2% of C at 14.4 volts (a 200 amp-hour battery will only accept 4 amps).

Float Phase: When the battery's acceptance declines to 2-4% of C, the voltage is reduced to 13.3 volts (Gel: 13.1V) to maintain the battery without losing electrolyte from the cells. This is a maintenance phase, not a charging phase."

So I guess what I'm saying is, Yes, I should have said almost no difference. I stand corrected (don't tell my wife ... she thinks I'm perfect 😉 ).
I'll further clarify; If I needed to replace my charger and could find a charger with an AGM setting, that's fine, Otherwise I'd treat 'em like wetcells. I still wouldn't recommend mixing battery types (or ages) in the same bank.
Remember to always check the date of manufacture when buying AGM's, they're shipped to dealers at around 90% charged and if they sit too long they could have been badly under charged for a looong time. Wet cells are shipped dry and aren't usually filled until they're sold and charged for the first time. Most "premature" AGM failures are because they were "old when sold".
 
SlackwaterJack,
I have not looked for a charger for 3 or 4 years so I may be out of date. When I last looked, they required all batteries in all banks to be the same type. For example, they did not want a flooded starter battery on bank 1, and a flooded deep cycle (or AGM or gel) battery on bank 2. Now, most people said it would be okay to put a flooded starter on bank 1 and a flooded deep cycle on bank 2, but the charger manufactures said it would damage the charger.

On my previous boats, I thought it unusual for all my batteries to die at the same time, but that is what happened.

Now I have 3 banks that were installed by the factory - bank 1 is a group 24 starter battery; group 2 is a group 24 dual purpose battery; and group 3 is two group 24 dual purpose batteries connected in parallel. We will have to wait and see how these last.
 
after a while, discussing batteries and charging almost becomes almost like one of those "Betty vs Veronica, Green Hornet vs Batman, Beatles/Elvis" discussions.... (and I still haven't decided).
 
I guess it all comes down to, what do you want your boat to do, and then figure out a way to make it work. The opinions I expressed are from my experience obtaining chargers for my boats and RV's over the years.

When I ordered my boat, I wanted a third bank of batteries to operate an inverter. The standard charger for the R21, ProTech 1220i, supports 3 banks. The factory installed a third bank that would normally be used for air conditioning. It turned out simple.

As it turns out, this ProTech charger supports the three types of batteries and is switch selectable for each type. All banks must be of the same type. This charger does not distinguish between flooded starter batteries and flooded deep cycle. I have had chargers that did.
 
Hi Folks:

Some you have suggested adding a Honda 2000i generator. This is a much..much cheaper alternative to the Mase generator option offered by Ranger at about $8,000. Of course they are not really comparable as the Mase has lots of other features which allow it to be put in the port locker. Anyways the output is the same. The Honda is about $1,500. I found a Champion generator at Costco which looks the same as the Honda for $500. It's small and pretty tough. The reviews are very favourable. What do you folks think? http://www.championpowerequipment.com/73552i.php

cheers Bill

Specifications
•Engine 80 cc OHV CPE
•Rated Wattage 1600 Watts
•Starting Wattage 2000 Watts
•AC Load 120V
•Phase Single
•Frequency 60 Hz
•Fuel Capacity 1.0 gallon (3.8 L)
•Weight 48.06 lbs. (21.8 kg)
•Height 16.3 inches (41.5 cm)
•Width 13.2 inches (33.5 cm)
•Length 19.3 inches (49 cm)
 
We have been using a Honda EU3000iS for house backup power for the last six years and are extremely happy with the performance, reliability, and the low noise level. That is why when we added the convection microwave to our r25 we went with the Honda 2000i. It is light weight and handles anything we can through at it in the r25 (no ac).
 
Thank you Wynn and Anniedear your help. Where do you put your generator?

cheers Bill
 
I agree that the Honda 2000 is a very good generator and encourage you to spend the extra $80 or so to have an extended run gas tank. If you are running heat or AC over night it will run out of gas and is a bear to restart after you let it run out. Also it is not fun to set a clock to get and refuel it. Only trying to run it all night is it a problem.
Ron
 
Our Honda 2000 will run 8 hours on one tank with the following load:
-- Refrigerator (house refrig)
-- all accessories for our 125gal fresh water fish tank
-- two cpap machines for 6 of those 8 hours.
We found this out during a nearly 80 hour power outage two or three years ago. And at our annual campouts in the Santa Rosa mountains in northern Nevada (elevation 6,800 ft), we have gotten over 15 hours on one tank (but we only run the cpap machines at the campouts). I do use the ECO switch on the generator to get this performance.

Since our R-29 does not have AC, I don't see any reason why we should not expect similar 8-hour or longer performance when out on the hook somewhere.

Gene R
Wolf Pack
 
Thanks for the tip, Maybe I did not have the ECO switch flipped. Mine ran out 2 nights running the AC and was not fun ti restart.
Ron
 
Bill

While under way we stow the generator with its cover in the cockpit in the corner by the raw water washout. We only use it when we are on the hook or moored without shore power, so we just set it on the front deck and run the shore power cord to it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

  • Tugnuts.com is the community hub for Ranger Tug, Cutwater, and Solara owners. Since its inception in 2008, the Tugnuts forum has grown into an active and thriving community of more than 9,000 members. It serves as both a meeting place for the best boating community online, and an invaluable archive of information.

  • User menu
Back
Top