The Empire's ECM strikes again...

L

Levitation

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Messages
1,300
Fluid Motion Model
C-248 C
Hull Identification Number
fmlt2510f809
Vessel Name
Charlotte Ann
Ahh well, I have just joined select company - those who have had the dreaded ECM failure (probably)...

As I mentioned in other threads I dropped the boat at the local Cummins dealer because it has been starting hard, beginning on our trip to Florida in February..
When I left it there - leaving not being completely voluntary - after being told to bring it in 'right now' (25 mile pull) as they were 'not that busy', said the manager on the phone...
"You will have to leave it as we are backed up for at least 3 days." said the shop foreman after I pulled in...

OK, so then I proceeded to attempt to - very politely - give them a primer on the care and feeding of a Ranger Tug... I was airily brushed off with, "our technician has loads of Cummins boat experience and does work at the marina regularly"..
"Well, call me when he is available and I will come and handle the boat so he can concentrate on the engine."
"That is not possible as we cannot allow customers on the shop floor."
"Well, OK, but I want to go over the fuel system with him. The QSD engine is different from the QSB engines you are familiar with."
"Oh, it's just an air leak and he will find it quickly. We will let you know when it it ready." The tone of voice was condescending...

Well, 2 days later I get a plaintive call from said, shop foreman - "Are the batteries unhooked or something? We can't get the engine to crank."
Needless to say he was greeted with silence on my end for a few seconds... Then I calmly explained to him that Ranger Tugs have four battery switches and how to find and set them...

This morning I stopped in and inquired how they were coming (I can see the boat in their large shop out through the big glass window behind the secretary)...
My how my absence makes the heart grow fonder... They could not do enough (coffee, donut?) to make me comfortable...
"So how are we doing?"
"You said it was starting 'hard'?"
"Yes."
"Well," throat clearing "we can't get it started."
By now my patience has worn thin... "That is because you don't know how to start it.. I asked you to call me. He did not find an air leak in the fuel system, did he?"
"Err", shuffling his feet "no."
"So that means it is an ECM failure. What does your diagnostic software say about it?"
A bit of nervous shuffling. "Well, Cummins is sending a diagnostic box so we can plug the ECM into it and talk to the engine and see what is happening."
"Well, call and have them include a new ECM because you are going to have to change it... And this time, dammit, call me and I will start the engine for you!" And I stomped out...

Normally, I am the most calm and polite person in the world... I do not believe that I know everything..
But in this case I knew within the first 30 seconds that I know vastly more about QSD engines than they do (they never saw one before)... So, the saga goes on to another week... At least none of Cummins' hoses have blown off...
 
Welcome to the club. Those of us who had the problem early on were without use of our boat for MONTHS waiting for a diagnosis and jumping through countless hoops and experiments......at least you had a clue....

Sparky
R25 2009
 
Yes Sparky, everything I know I read on Tugnuts... Good thing too...

I know I am being hard on them - but - I was frustrated...
 
If you look at the Cummins Mercruiser service listings , they will show what they are certified for and if they do recreational . You want to see "Quantum" on the listing.
Marc
 
N O W you tell me! :lol:

Aww right levity aside, I was reasonably sure they had never seen a QSD engine before I went there, but the next dealer is a 2.5 hour pull from here - and may not have seen one either / and I did not know then what you just told me...

And I was hoping (which overcomes reason) that it was a simple air leak that I simply was not finding in spite of spending half a day upside down looking, tightening, cranking, looking, etc... When he confirmed that the technician had put the line adapter and gauges on it (which I do not have) and that it was not losing rail pressure or suction pressure, given that piece of key information I instantly knew what was the culprit... Surprisingly, the shop foreman seemed open to the idea that the ECM is bad rather than blowing me off like he did at first and I should not have been so blunt...

Now that I have developed a sick ECM and I have cranked the engine while watching the exhaust and seeing diesel vapor puffing out I suspect I know what the ECM is doing wrong... I have the 3 key ingredients for starting a diesel engine meaning I have a nominal compression, adequate cranking speed, and I have fuel injection... So, the only reason the injected charge does not fire is that it is being injected at the wrong time in the cycle - probably being injected after the piston is going down and the compression is dropping...
In a mechanical diesel this would mean that the high pressure pump's drive gear had jumped a tooth and was out of time (which I know how to fix)... These doggone, new fangled electronic beasts cannot be fixed on the side of the road like our tractors - sheesh...
 
I had the ECM changed last year, and it did cost me about $850 for the work, even though I figured that it was a defect that should have been covered under warranty. Well, after that the engine has been starting up without any problems.
 
I will chime in here. I called the Cummins dealer two times that Denny has taken his boat to. No return calls. Emailed the service manager for Cummins USA and it is a warrantable item. The Cummins USA rep informed he that he has been moved to a new position and now has another guy in charge. This should not cost any money. The reason engine service dealers charge money to our customers is because they are too lazy to submit a warranty claim or possibly pick up the phone and contact the engine supplier to verify the issue so they can get reimbursed. Why would they do this when the customer is willing to pay them? I have a Cummins sheet with all engines that have been repaired and it was made from Cummins! This is a warrantable failure and I do not care how old the engines are. If its a recall, its a recall and should still be covered. This post you had written up makes me so upset reading it. It is really a shame as this engine is a good one. Such a simple repair and fix can really hurt the great reputation that Cummins had started. If there is anything I can do to push them along, please let me know.
 
Thanks Andrew, I really appreciate the support...
Because of the holiday weekend I did not call them yesterday... It is 6:51AM here and I will call in a couple of hours and see what today's story is...
 
Having just read the thread about Yanmar hoses and warranty replacement of same, it's like Yogi Berra famously said,
"It's deja vu all over again."
Both the Cummins and the Yanmar are excellent engines for marine application, from all I can tell.
In both cases, the ECM and the hoses, some distributors fumbled the ball when asked, others offered warranty help.
I can say my Cummins never once failed to start, and never let me down. The only difference was, with the replacement ECM (free from Cummins) it started on the first or second turnover. Previously, it took 4-7 cranks. Not a big deal.
My Cummins was superb with power and reliability.
I suspect the Yanmars are, also.
In both cases, the key is to not relent, once it becomes a warranty issue. Don't let some distributor or dealer rip you off.
Stand firm.
These things work themselves out------with you help, and Andrew's !
 
Well, yesterday I again talked to my dealer... He cheerfully announced that they had finally ordered the 'tool' with which to interrogate my ECM... Of course it is not in his hands and he is not sure when... If you remember, it and the new ECM, were on overnight shipment status a week and a half ago - now the tool has just been ordered and he admits the ECM has not been until he can 'talk to' the old chip...
I informed him that Cummins had mailed the new chip to some of the owners who simply swapped the chips themselves - a ten minute job as opposed to "The three hour tour" we seem to be on...
Cummins has issued a list of affected engines for which they will supply a new ECM, mine is one and the chip has not been changed, and that all is needed is to plug the new chip into the box and close it u p...
That he absolutely must talk to Andrew and gave him Andrew's number, for the third time...


So, there we are... They have had my boat for two weeks and we are not even one inch closer to simply swapping the chip... A job that any 14 year old computer hacker with terminal acne could do in a flash... I cannot even imagine the frustration of those who had their boats tied up for months - but I can see how it went down... I am making the trip into Saginaw today and I will be at the New Departure Ball Bearing dealer right next door to the Cummins dealer right after lunch to pick up some bearing seals for one of my tractors - they had to order them in, no one is keeping stock on the shelves anymore...
I will of course stop in to let my boat know it is still loved... If they have not talked to Andrew by then I suspect I am going to be annoyed...
 
Maybe you could pick up sling shot and some extra ball bearings and have some fun with your "friendly" repairman...... reminds me of the old west where they would make'em dance......
 
Well, the story du jour is that he did talk to Cummins and to Andrew...
They put my boat back in the shop this morning and have now removed the entire ECM box and are shipping it to Cummins...
Stay tuned radio fans, don't touch that dial...
 
Well, we are now 12 days further along - 12 days I will never get back...

The good news is that our red haired , pug nosed, freckle faced, granddaughter (nyaa, she's not irish) graduated from High School with honors last Thursday and has a scholarship to Purdue (brag, brag, brag)... If her father were alive he would be busting his britches with pride...

The not so good news is that the Cummins dealer STILL does not have a clue as to which way is up...
They called me last Friday while we were in Chicago to announce they had the ECM box returned from Cummins and the boat would be ready Monday afternoon... So, yesterday with great anticipation I got the truck out of the shed and drove the 25 miles to the dealer...
Long story short: He then gave me the sob story that he had spent all day trying to find out where the computer plug to the engine is located, that no one at Ranger will call him back, yadda, yadda, yadda... When he got done with his tale of woe I asked if he had found any plug for the engine... Well, he found this box in the starboard locker marked "ENGINE" with a round plug on the side of it, but the "tool" he has uses a rectangular plug... So, until Ranger could solve this he was stymied... I casually reached down and with my toe slid the pail containing the wash mitt, the fog horn and some flares 6 inches to the side, pointed at the rectangular plug that was protruding from the wire harness and asked if that might do... (a deer in the headlights moment)
So then he plugs his tool and his computer into said plug and frowns... "It says error." I peered over his shoulder... I went into the cabin and checked the volt meter - 10.6 volts (sigh) - caused by endless cranking of the engine attempting to start it... Of course they don't have a plug to match shorepower harness... I go to the truck and get an adapter and an extension cord and we get 120 volts to the boat and the charger kicks on... Now his tool is happy... He then proceeds to peer and tap the keyboard and mutter for a good 20 minutes...
I finally look over his shoulder again... He is attempting to get past a screen that has a box for a PROXY address, without entering an address... (sigh again)....
"Do you know the PROXY address for this software?"
"No." he admits...
"Have you ever used this software before?"
"No."
"Where did the software come from?"
"well, it is the tool that is shared by a group of dealers because it costs $1100 dollars and we just mail it back and forth."
"Do you know which dealer it just came from?"
"Yes."
"Well, I suggest you call that dealer and get the proxy address from them because the program is not going to run until you enter it. I will call you tomorrow and see how you are doing... OH, by the way, your mechanic did a nice job of putting drop cloths on the deck to keep grease stains off... He even took my cushions and stacked them out of the way against the port rail... Then he laid over the engine and braced his feet against the cushions getting really nasty grease prints all over them... I don't think it will come out so you may want to call Ranger and buy me a new set of cushions if you expect me to pay your bill." (another deer in the headlights moment)

(sigh)
 
Denny-O:

I sure hope today is the day your "empire ECM strikes back" gets resolved. I can not imagine where this problem would stand if you had not stayed on top of it. We had a similiar experience with an ECM many years ago and from our own experience I know how frustrating this can be. Please keep us posted as to the final outcome so we can all learn from your unfortunate situation. For reference purposes tell us if your working with a boat yard that is trained with the Cummins or with a regional Cummins service center?
 
It is a regional Cummins dealer... They do display the "Quantum" certificate that they are certified on recreational marine diesel engines (sigh)
They have a huge shop filled with semi's and motor coaches being repaired... The deer in the headlights is their manager... Apparently their "marine" mechanic is somewhere else...
If it was not for the information on Tugnuts, I - and they - would still be wandering around in the dark... Now only they are, an improvement of 50%....

Anyway, with Charlotte Ann on display in front of the big window at the reception counter, freshly waxed and sitting on a shiny new trailer, I had two offers to buy it yesterday from people bringing in their coaches for repair - Forgive me father, I cannot say I was not tempted...
I will do redemption tonight by getting on my knees and reciting ten, "It's so cute" and five, "No two footitis." prayers...
 
Being from Michigan and having had a Cummins in our prior boat we had good experience with Cummins Bridgeway out of Saginaw, alas not with the ECM. The fellow we worked with is a stand up guy who travels the state for Cummins as the Northern Field Service rep. His name is Dan Panko and the last cell # I had was 989-464-4666. If your problem continues it might be worth a call to run your situation by Diesel Dan.
 
It is Bridgeway I am dealing with...
 
Well, Charlotte Ann is back home after 28 days at the dealer...
The bill is $1972.51 to finally change the ECM that was defectively manufactured... They claim there is no warranty coverage...
The dealer did not exhibit competence...
And the refusal of Cummins North America to correct their defective manufacturing is execrable...
Ranger Tug is well advised to have dumped Cummins...
 
That is a good word denny-o, execrable.
 
These are the prices we pay for "pushing the envelope". The good old 2000 RPM diesel which would run forever if you only had a working fuel pump is a relic now. Partly because of "engineering enhancements" and I suspect partly because of government prodding. I suspect the latter is partly responsible for ECMs and other sophisticated combustion controls. I suppose all this will work out to our advantage eventually, but maybe not for a generation or two.

Sure would be nice if my 3YM30, a fairly straight-forward design, could be started by spinning a flywheel by hand. I could have used that on the last launch when the start battery failed somewhere between home and the ramp. Fortunately I had jumper cables in the truck and a fully-charged house battery. We did about 10 starts that day using them. By the way, I have decided to make my own jumper cable for the Ranger. One conductor will do, and it only has to be about a foot long. I can keep that pretty neatly in a locker on board. Think about it.

We met many people with the old Detroit Diesel 6-71-based engines in recreational boats. On the rare event that one failed, they called the local truck repair folks and were running again quickly and relatively inexpensively.

Caterpillar had a problem a few years back. They had gone to "high speed, low displacement" engines. They were failing with sickening frequency. Fortunately, most of the boats had two, so they could cycle between engines as repairs were made on one, then the other. Often more than once. We ran across them all over the place. A Cat dealer told me the average warranty expense on one was in the range of $20,000!

I believe there was a long-running series of law suits concerning Man engines for failing crankshafts. When I was in school we used a slide rule (geezer here) to do the calculations and were taught to add 20% just to be on the safe side. Now the calculation is done to 8 decimal places on a computer since at 7 places the company might be out a nickel for the difference on each engine. 😱

"Progress" always has a price. But it is often priced incorrectly and charged to the wrong person because the testing is actually done by retail customers instead of in the labs and test tracks. How 'bout those early GM automotive diesel V-8s? "Sure, boss, we can take a regular Chevy V-8, change a few internals and the fuel system and make you a diesel."

For a more on the subject of marine diesels, here's a good article by David Pascoe:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/comparing_diesel_types.htm
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

  • Tugnuts.com is the community hub for Ranger Tug, Cutwater, and Solara owners. Since its inception in 2008, the Tugnuts forum has grown into an active and thriving community of more than 9,000 members. It serves as both a meeting place for the best boating community online, and an invaluable archive of information.

  • User menu
Back
Top