Waste tank pump-out procedures

[NwRecon]

Looking for proper procedure for pumping out waste water tank. Apologies if already answered in another place and my searches did not locate it. I did not find anything in my manuals or online. Here is the question....Is it as simple as removing the waste pump-out cap, connecting the suction hose and opening the suction valve in the pump-out hose?

2018 R23 with seawater flush, A/C and factory generator. Also have a Macerator pump but valve is off.

I pulled up to pump-out station the other day and performed a pump-out. Lever on toilet moved to the right (shut off) and this was my first time pumping the 11 gallon tank out since I purchased. I believe the tank was empty when purchased and I tested the toilet flush procedures and demo''d with my wife. Also no odor at all like I have read about. The attendant showed me how to watch the clear section of the hose and explained when the flow stops or is sporadic, the tank should be empty. It only took few seconds so I was pleased to confirm the tank contents were low. I thought now we can use the toilet if needed. BUT when I went down below I noticed the shower floor was wet. It was wet around the toilet. I open the seat and the toilet was full of water. Pump, open valve to left, pump pump pump and finally down to empty and then normal. WTH???

Luckily I think it was all seawater (river water actually). Hose down with fresh water from sink and pump out with shower pump. Dry floor and scratch head (on shoulders). Started searching for procedure....nothing! Okay, is the vent clogged and/or do I need to closed the seawater intake valve that is near the aft starboard side of generator? I'm thinking would they build it that way? Open center lid, kneel down, reach back to shut off the valve? Now remember to turn valve back on when down?

I read there could be a screen in the vent hose for the waste water and the fresh water tank vents. I will try to flush those next time I am at the boat. The boat spent four years in SE Texas before I purchased and am pretty sure they have some huge bugs down there. I know here in the NW we have bugs too. Bees, spiders, elder bugs, stink bugs and the worst are the mud daubers. They will pack small to large hole with mud nests. I have seen them pack the small round hole of a flat trailer wiring connector and other holes as large as a tail pipe, like a vent pipe in the roof of your house.

So again, What is proper procedure from the manufacture?

 

[JeffreyAC77]

The procedure is as follows:

Pull up to site on proper side (starboard on my boat)
Go to pumpout station and extend hose along the dock as best you can
Turn on the pumpout at the station itself
Open cap on your boat
TURN ON SUCTION fitting on hose first
Insert into boat fitting
Watch waste through the small window until it is nearly clear (pumping will be stuttering at the proper time)
TURN OFF SUCTION before removing the hose
Dip the hose ending in the water to clean off excess waste
I typically then add Water to the waste tank (a couple of gallons)
Then turn on vacuum again and insert to remove water (similar process to removing waste)
Turn off vacuum before removing hose
Turn off pump at the pumpout station and replace hose
Use water from dock to hose off the area as needed
ALL DONE.

 

[briandunnington]

I think @NwRecon was wondering about any other in-boat procedures (do you have to switch the toilet lever? do you have to close any valves?, etc). But it is good to know the overall pumpout procedure as well (timely for me because we are about ready to do our first-ever pumpout on our new-to-us R23 as well)

 

[NwRecon]

Thank you both for your replies.

That is just about exactly how the procedure went with help from the attendant except for a second rinse. After discovering the toilet over flowed, I mentioned it to the attendant and he said, " I've never heard of that." So, I seem to have another problem that I must figure out. I believe if the pump out line sucks from near the bottom of the tank it would cause a vacuum if the vent was not open and possibly pull seawater in, but why would it fill the bowl? Possibly a bad seal in the toilet?

I hope there is a screen in the vent and that it is not far from the outlet. Not many pump station near my moorage so I will refrain from using toilet until I can get to a pump out station at the public launch instead of at the fuel dock. Then I can take some time to test without blocking cash paying customers. I am gad to hear that it is NORMALLY not necessary to shut the seawater intake valve before pump-out, but if the tank is full of s@#$ I will shut off the valve. For those that flush with fresh water, I hope there is a back-flow prevention device. I will update with my findings later.

 

[condond]

I would add to the procedure to first prime the system in whatever it is your boat is floating in (e.g. salt water or fresh water). Most of the newer pumpout systems don't require priming, but some of the older ones do. We had a recent negative experience at the Brownsville Marina in Puget Sound. I turned on the vacuum system and slowly opened the valve over the pump out hole and rather than vacuuming, it spit out what was in the line (you guessed it) over the back of the boat causing a very ugly mess.
Priming would make sure the line was vacuuming properly, discharge any "spits" or "burps" into the harbor and keep the boat clean and the Admiral happy. I had gotten lazy with the newer pumpouts and had stopped making sure they are primed properly. Never again!

 

[NwRecon]

Good advice Condond.

Update: I checked my vents and found them to appear clear. In fact my opinion is the screen system used is impressive. I don't see how bugs could clog it without it being easily visible from the outside of the boat. I found my manual for the toilet and near the very end it does say the seawater inlet valve should be turned off after every use and then turned back on when you need to use the head (toilet). Well that seems a little off the mark to me when the generator uses the same water inlet as the toilet and that valve is near the rear of the generator compartment. The A/C water inlet is in the front of generator compartment. I understand the recommendation to shut off the valves when the boat is in the water and I am away from the boat for a bit. But shutting the valve when not using the head would mean I can't use the generator without the possibility of the toilet overflowing.

It would seem an easy fix might be to install another shut-off valve right at the toilet then it could be turned off and on as needed. It would also be easy to turn off during pump-outs if needed. Has anybody done this? Or is there another recommendation from a factory rep?

I did talk to the Marina Harbormaster and found out their is a service provider that will come to my boat and pump out the black water tank for a small fee and I don't even need to be there (as long as my overflow vacuum issue is solved).

 

[Osprey]

Have you checked the joker valve?

 

[it4llc]

I'll second Osprey's suggestion. While fortunately our toilet never overflowed, it did get fairly full (and fortunately we didn't hit any water rough enough to slosh it out). The problem was the joker valve, which was fortunately a fairly easy fix on our boat. I think Brian? may have detailed some steps on changing this, but the gist of it was to pump out your tank very well, flush it out, pump it out, until it is as clean as you can get it, because when you change the joker valve you'll get some water spillage and better that water be as clean as possible. 🙂

 

[NwRecon]

I have not looked into the joker valve possibility. The boat has about 125 hours on it and I believe very little use of the head, sinks, fridge, micro and no time on the stove. I guess the valve could be prematurely failing but when the toilet manufacturer describes how to use the toilet and suggested to shut the sea-cock valve after EVERY use to prevent the bowl from over flowing, that tells me something.

Today while looking for the best place to install a shut-off valve, I located a vent filter under the galley sink by the Macerator sea-cock valve. Looks like a nice install but now a little confused because it vents at another through hull fitting. I had noticed the fitting on the starboard side below and back just a little from the waste port. It has a black plastic cap with a large flat head screw driver type slot in it. I took it off and there is another vent screen type fitting underneath. It looks like the cap does not seal completely but is not open enough to work as a good vent especially during high volume suction while doing a pump-out. No literature in my Ranger Tug bag. Sure would be nice to get some RT reps to chime in here since they designed these boats and options. Like does the filter addition eliminate the the original waste tank vent and does the vent cover need to be removed during pump out?

Anyway, the lack of a secondary shut-off valve (suggested in toilet manual) makes using the head as per the toilet manufacturer guidelines very impractical. I will figure it out soon, I just hope others that are less mechanically incline don't have to suffer the same frustrations. I am sure RT realizes that those of us who purchase used Tugs are often helping the sellers who plan to upgrade to a new larger Tug and therefore are very important to their business.

I installed a simple shut-off valve mod at the head. It was about a 30 minute install after sourcing the parts. The only negative I can see is another handle to clean. I will try to post photos somewhere. Thanks for all the suggestions, procedures and help along this journey.

 

[it4llc]

FWIW, we bought our boat new, and had maybe 70 hours on it when I replaced the joker valve.

 

[NwRecon]

FWIW, we bought our boat new, and had maybe 70 hours on it when I replaced the joker valve.

Now we are getting somewhere. Please describe your symptoms that led you to replace the joker valve that controls the contents of the waste tank to prevent back flow into the bowl?

I did not have that problem, thank God. My problem was river water filling the bowl during the pump-out. I know the bowl was not full when we arrived at the pump=out dock. After pump-out, noticed clear water on floor, in the bowl (full to the top) and around the toilet. How do I know? I had previously (two weeks prior) put some blue deodorizer in the system.

The trouble shooting guide in my Jabsco manual list the very first thing "Bowl fills when toilet not in use". "shut seacocks and or Fit Vented Loops"

The next symptom is "Waste water re-appears in bowl" Check bottom gasket (16) and joker valve (33)

Now I wonder if the black cap I previously talked about is supposed to be placed over the old vent outlet if deleted when a vent filter was installed and a new through hull vent fitting was installed? If I had the manual I could read about it. I was not smart enough to read the manufacturer name on the filter but i will the next time I am at the boat. I am only guessing that the vent filter installer did not think looping the hose back forward to the original vent hose was a good idea and too much of bend and could possibly kink it. Something caused them to drill a new hole in the side of the boat. BTW that hole is not listed in the RT R23 manual...Also BTW, after installing the new shut-off valve and with it turned off the toilet handle will not pull up much and wants to spring back down. That tells me the seals in the manual water are working good....PS; I did not find an easy way to attach photos here or on my profile so if you want some photos notify me with your email or text number and I would be happy to send you two photos...

 

[it4llc]

After flushing, our bowl would fill up a lot, although not overflowing. I wasn't sure if it was the waste water or river water. I also had put treatment into our holding tank, and didn't see anything in the bowl. However, I would turn off the seacock, and it would still fill some. My best guess on this was that the actual waste in the tank wasn't coming back into the bowl, but that the water in the line from the bowl to top of bend where I think the vent is would come back into the bowl.

 

[NwRecon]

When you changed the joker valve did it look like there was a difference between the old and the new? It sounds like it corrected your problem if you have not had that happen again.

My understanding about the vent is it is a fitting on or near the very top of the waste tank with a hose attached and leading up to the through hull vent. It will allow waste to enter the tank without building pressure and should stop any vacuum from building when you pump waste out of the tank. If the vent is clogged or blocked neither will work correctly. I am pretty sure there is not a vent in the water feed line because the pump would suck air rather than water and thus not work.

Fluid can siphon through a hose without any suction. During pump out with the high volume of suction, it just might create a siphon if the vent can't let the same volume of air into the tank as fluid that is being sucked out. In theory, one would think the little switch on the toilet for wetting the bowl or flushing should stop river water from entering the bowl but the manufacturer must know something if they recommend shutting the water-in seacock after every use?

My mod should stop any chance of that happening if turned off. I can't wait to pump out again to verify (can't believe that but I do love when things work correctly).

 

[it4llc]

I could see that the old joker valve had a slight opening where the new one didn't - basically the working end of it makes a plus sign shape and there was a real slight gap between the sides on the old one. I'm not sure exactly how everything is routed on our boat - it doesn't match the manual terribly well, e.g., our holding tank is under the cabin floor on the port side more or less under the stove/oven. I do see what you are saying about the vent though so scratch my prior comment on that - I was thinking that the vent was on the line from the toilet to the holding tank, not from the tank itself.

FWIW, we have the seacock open the entire time we are cruising - closing it every time someone uses the head seems excessive - but I do close all the seacocks when we are off the boat.

 

[NwRecon]

Hey yours could be different for sure. I could see them putting the vent in the large hose from the bottom of the bowl to the tank as long as that hose enters the tank near the top of tank. Around here with residential plumping they put a vent as close to the toilet as possible and it comes off the waste pipe, but it doesn't empty into a tank and the bowl normally has water in it so it can't let air in behind the load going down the pipe like the marine and RV head can.

On another note, if you have A/C with reverse heat and the water stops flowing through and out the discharge port, I found a fix for that. Mine worked perfect the time before last. I had more than enough heat coming out and the water was flowing good. So the last time I went down to install the shut-off valve at the head, I turned the heat on while on shore power to warm the boat up from 50 degrees. after several minutes no heat yet. WTH, no water coming out of discharge port. Get the manual out and read. It says check strainer, tap on pump, if your hear pump running remove hose to see if water is coming out and possibly release air lock. if that doesn't work, it says to tap on water flow valve in A/C unit because it could be stuck closed.

My A/C unit is under the front dinette seat near the microwave. No way to get to it. I crawled into the cave, really claustrophobic to me, where I found about a 4" gap between the ceiling and the outer wall. I put my had and arm up there and slapped everything I could. I lightly beat on the ceiling and then crawled back out. Swoosh feel better now. Turn on heat again and with the center Gen hatch open the pump sounded different (less labored) and then I looked to the starboard side and the water is flowing. A few minutes later the heat is coming on strong and worked perfect until had to shut it down. Some people laugh at the Fonzie method but the manuals still suggests it and it works sometimes. Best of luck to you!

 

[NwRecon]

***WARNING***

R23 owners (don't know about other models since this is my first Tug). Inspect the area under the step where the shower sump pump box is located. I have been told there should not be any water in that area. However, after my head bowl overflowed with river water (seawater fed flush system) during my first waste pump-out, I found a couple of gallons of water under the step. There is not a drain hole to allow the water to flow back down hill to the bilge pump, so it just sits in there. I had to pump mine out and then dry out the rest with towels. I have solved the overflow problem with a second shut-off valve at the toilet as the manual describes and suggests. It looks like a spill near the head will run towards the rear to a small ledge that directs the water towards the step. Since the step is not sealed, the water can run under the removable step tread and into the compartment. Any water that runs down off the ledge to the floor will be pumped out by the auto shower sump pump 😀 .

I have not taken a shower in the boat and not sure if I ever will, but if I did I think the water will land on the same ledge and may have the same results. However, the volume of water should be way less than a head bowl overflow.

Simple correction:
I plan to find a peel and stick weatherstrip or L angle molding to adhere across the ledge near the step that will direct the water off the ledge and down to the sump pump. In my mental theory it should solve the issue. I think I read a post about installing a full surround shower curtain that would also solve the shower water from getting to ledge.

 

[CruisingElvinRay]

My A/C unit is under the front dinette seat near the microwave. No way to get to it.

FYI: You can remove the two screws on the aisle hinge connecting the seat to the base and rotate the seat forward to access the A/C unit.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[NwRecon]

My A/C unit is under the front dinette seat near the microwave. No way to get to it.

FYI: You can remove the two screws on the aisle hinge connecting the seat to the base and rotate the seat forward to access the A/C unit.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Are you kidding me? I will be checking that out. Thank you SO much for that info...

 

[NwRecon]

***Update***

Thanks again CruisingElvinRay for your advice. Mine 2018 R23 had one screw on the Port side of front dinette seat and then I removed the four screw from both hinges on the starboard side of the seat and forward it tilts now. I can look down and see how it works and most importantly how the water hoses are routed. (No contraband found)

I remember looking at that earlier and seeing hinges in the front and on the side and concluding it can't tip both ways. Never thought to remove the screws from a hinge. Wonder why not a latch and something in the manual about it? Same access for removing the Microwave fasteners.

Just goes to show the value of this group.

 

[NwRecon]

***UPDATE pump-out***

After adding an additional water intake shut-off valve at the head, my second waste pump-out went smooth. After pumping, I added about a half gallon of Simple Green (about 10 years old, time to get rid of) and then added 50 seconds of fresh water from hose and pumped out again. Volume seemed about the same during both pump-outs. With the new valve off, I am still able to add antifreeze through the toilet with the factory toilet valve on the right position (flush position) because the handle will pump. If I turn the switch to the left (fill the bowl position) the handle will only pull up slightly before feeling resistance and spring back down if let go of. I assume that means the seals are good in the pump portion of the toilet. With the waste tank empty I could hear the antifreeze entering the empty tank.

Everything is winterized now and I am still able to use the boat without the need to winterize again. A new bilge heater Twin Hornet 45 700w Boat Bilge Engine Compartment Heater (USCG approved) is a nice insurance device while mooring and hooked to shore power.